Audio is available for this interview:
Interview with Thomas G. Ainsworth by Andrea L¡¯Hommedieu
Summary Sheet and Transcript

Ainsworth, Thomas G.

L¡¯Hommedieu, Andrea

June 24, 2003

South Portland, Maine

ID Number
MOH 400

Use Restrictions
? Bates College. This transcript is provided for individual Research Purposes Only; for all
other uses, including publication, reproduction and quotation beyond fair use, permission must
be obtained in writing from: The Edmund S. Muskie Archives and Special Collections Library,
Bates College, 70 Campus Avenue, Lewiston, Maine 04240-6018.

Biographical Note

Thomas Geoffrey Ainsworth was born November 8, 1948 in Portland, Maine and grew up in
Yarmouth, Maine, which was then a rural, Republican fishing community. His mother¡¯s name
was Phyllis (Evans) Ainsworth, who was initially the town librarian and later the school
librarian. His father¡¯s name is Edward Ainsworth, and he was a longtime employee of the
Portland newspapers, spent more than 40 years as coach and umpire for baseball leagues, and
served a term in the state legislature in 1981 to 1982. Ainsworth is a graduate of the University
of Maine, Orono with a degree in History, and he earned in J.D. from the Maine School of Law
in 1974. In 1970, during his college years, he was chosen to intern in Muskie¡¯s Senate office.
His duties included researching, drafting policy, running errands and driving the Senator. At the
time of this interview he practiced law at the office of Ainsworth & Thelin in South Portland,

Scope and Content Note

Interview includes discussions of: family background; Senate office internship; environmental
legislation; and the Yarmouth, Maine community.

Indexed Names

Ainsworth, Edward
Ainsworth, Kathryn (Monahan)
Ainsworth, Phyllis
Ainsworth, Thomas G.
Bernhard, Berl
Billings, Leon
Burns, Fern (Campbell)
Case, Jim
Cory, Gayle
Cutler, Eliot
Fitzgerald, Buzz
Harriman, Averell
Horan, Hume
Hughes, Steve
Jacobs, Charlie
Johnson, Meg
Mawhinney, Eugene
McKernan, John
Merrill, Phil
Mills, Janet
Mills, S. Peter III
Muskie, Edmund S., 1914-1996
Muskie, Jane Gray
Muskie, Lexi
Muskie, Melinda
Muskie, Stephen O.
Nicoll, Don
Shepherd, Bob
Tierney, James
Turner, Steve
Winger, Harry B.


Andrea L'Hommedieu: This is an interview with Thomas Ainsworth at his office at 7 Ocean
Street in South Portland, Maine, on June 24th, the year 2003, and this is Andrea L'Hommedieu.
If you could just start by giving me your full name and spelling it?

Thomas Ainsworth: Sure, Thomas Geoffrey Ainsworth, T-H-O-M-A-S, Geoffrey, G-E-O-F-F-
R-E-Y, Ainsworth, A-I-N-S-W-O-R-T-H.

AL: And where and when were you born?

TA: I was born in, actually in Portland, in 1948, November 8, 1948.

AL: And is that where you grew up?

TA: I actually grew up in Yarmouth, about twelve miles north of Portland.

AL: And what was that community like back in the fifties?

TA: That community was a sleepy little fishing village, because there was no 295 connector,
the Interstate highways had not been completed at that point, and so Yarmouth was historically a
boat building and fishing community. By the time I was growing up it was really just a fishing
community and a few small boats, not anything large like the three- or four-masted schooners as
was the case earlier.

AL: And what were your parents' names and occupations?

TA: My mother was Phyllis Evans Ainsworth, she was initially the town librarian for
Yarmouth, then became the school librarian when Yarmouth built a new combined junior and
senior high school. She went on from that into regional library work and state library work at
the end of her career. My father is Edward Ainsworth, no middle initial, has been a long time
employee of the Portland newspapers. He has held various positions there, but that was really
his career. His love, however, was baseball, and he coached and also was an umpire in baseball
for some forty odd years.

AL: Is he a Red Sox fan?

TA: Of course.


AL: And so what was it like for you growing up in Yarmouth, because your parents weren't
actually in the fishing business. Was the community, politically, was it Republican, Democrat?

TA: Yarmouth was and still is predominantly Republican. I can't tell you for sure but there
may have been a bounty on Democrats when we were growing up there. My dad was one of
probably three registered Democrats. My mother was an independent. My dad, after he retired
from the newspaper actually was elected as a Democrat from Yarmouth to the state legislature,
and the town committee was so upset that they turned out in great force and fund raising effort
the following election to make sure that that mistake wasn't repeated from Yarmouth's

So we had a household where I would dare say my mother leaned more to the Republican side,
my dad was definitely a pro-labor Democrat, he was a long time president of his union at the
newspaper and he became president of the International Typographical Union. So we had the
labor perspective, and just to complicate things a little further, some distant part of my mother's
family actually was the ownership of the newspaper. That was a happenstance, that wasn't any

connection that got my dad that job, it was more just a coincidence. So we would have these,
shall we say management-labor disputes at home about various issues at the newspaper.

AL: And what was your perspective on that?

TA: It was a wonderful environment to grow up in, because we really did have a very active
discussion, my dad being in the newspaper business, my mother being a librarian. We all read
two newspapers a day from the time I can remember beginning to read, and we had nothing short
of wonderful discussions at the dinner table. We would sit and drink a pot or two of tea and talk
about the day's events for ourselves, but also the news, so it was a wonderful place. It's a good
thing, because it was very rural.

My parents had both grown up primarily in Yarmouth. My mother had moved with her family to
Montreal when her dad got transferred for the railroad, but most of her time she had actually
grown up in Portland, and dad certainly had, except for a brief time when he had gone back to
England with his folks. His folks were actually British; he was the first generation born here.
They had come from England, stayed here for a while, went back to England, and eventually
came back to Portland where dad stayed. So my parents' connection was to Portland. Yarmouth
was not our, shall we say, native community, we didn't have initially a lot of connections there,
and it was a relatively rural area. So, fortunately there were two boys next door to us which,
next door is a relative term in a rural community, but. We had some playmates but not a lot, and
just found that we had all kinds of opportunity to do all the kinds of things that young boys can
only dream about today, I think.

AL: Do you recall what time period it was when your father was in the Maine legislature?

TA: Yes, he was elected in approximately 1980 through '81 session, I guess the election of '80
would have been starting in '81 and completing work in '82, I believe that's right.

AL: Did he ever talk about his experience in the legislature and how he viewed it?

TA: He did and he still does. He has very strong feelings about the process and the then
challenges as well as the challenges that we're seeing today. So he's very interested in politics
generally, and as I say, had been actively involved in the Democratic Party, which was to say
they sat around a card table and did their plotting and planning.

AL: Did he have rec-, or, you were pretty young when Senator Muskie became governor of
Maine; did you ever remember your parents talking about Ed Muskie being the first Democratic
governor in many, many years?

TA: Absolutely. Again, my dad being in the newspaper business, it was not surprising that he
was a bit of a news junkie, and it was not only headlines in the newspaper, it was headlines at
our house when we had a Democrat elected to the Blaine House. And dad had a deep sense that
Ed Muskie was cut from different cloth, not just a different Democratic cloth but different cloth,
and that he was a true leader, a true worker, and believed in the workingman. So, oh, I
remember it well.

AL: After growing up in Yarmouth, you went to the University of Maine, Orono, is that

TA: That's correct, yes.

AL: What did you major in?

TA: Well, I started out thinking that I was going to be a history teacher, as I had expected that
I would be through most of my high school career. And then in my latter part of my high school
I got a chance to study overseas in Australia for a year, and that changed my focus a little bit to
the international and started me thinking more about the political in some ways. As you may
recall, this was a very political time. The time period I was at the University of Maine at Orono
was 1967 to 1971. So we had, we had experienced and were experiencing, the racial strife
across the world stage was just fraught with all kinds of changes, we were uncovering the
importance of environmentalism, it was just a multiple of sea changes of policy going on at the
same time. So I wound up graduating from Orono with my degree in history and a minor in
foreign languages, and ultimately went on to law school.

AL: What made you decide on law school?

TA: Ed Muskie.

AL: Really, in what way?

TA: In my, spring of my junior year, I was able to participate in a University of Maine Orono
political science department internship program with our congressional delegation, which at that
time was Democratic. And I was fortunate enough to have the position in Senator Muskie's
office, and I can tell you that I had never considered being a lawyer before I went to work in the
Senator's Washington office. But events unfolded in such a way that I got to see what
opportunities had become available to Senator Muskie partly because of his law degree. And he
convinced me during my time with him that it was a credential that, I believe his phrase was,
"Couldn't hurt; might help." So it really was, also a function of the work that I did for his office,
or the personal side of him, was suggesting strongly that I consider getting a background in law.

But the experience working in his office and developing new policy just imbued me with a sense
of the law and the process. My second or third month there, I was actually involved in drafting
of a very tiny portion of an immigration bill. Now, it was insignificant then, and it's insignificant
now, but it was monumental to me to be allowed to draft something that ultimately got passed. It
was probably a paragraph at the most, but it really solidified that a process requires, or doesn't
require, it benefits from an appreciation of the law.

And that hit me right square in the face, along with one other incident where Senator Muskie had
given me a research project to do and, do over at the Library of Congress which was very close
to the old Senator office building and was a wonderful research facility and just a wonderful
building. So I went over there and for weeks was working on this environmental law project,

and that was really developing a proposal for some future policy. And I had worked very hard
on it. I was quite pleased with the results of my research and maybe even some of my
conclusions, came back and had scheduled time with the Senator, who was able to shred my
thought process, find all the loopholes in my research, and come up with a better analysis and
policy in fifteen minutes than I'd come up with in, you know, four or five days of, you know full
days of research and two or three days of writing. So I was profoundly impressed with his
intellect, profoundly impressed with the fact that he was at least ten years ahead of anybody I
had ever known on environmental issues, and he was able to interrelate policy pieces better than
anybody I've ever known.

AL: And did you go back to the drawing board?

TA: I did indeed, and it was a wonderful experience, it was humbling, it was empowering, it
was a connection to the Senator. It was at about that time that the office staff had figured out
that being a single guy in Washington, D.C. with really no immediate family, I did have some
extended family not too far away but with no immediate ties, that I could sort of drop things and
go at a moment's notice. And oftentimes all they needed for the Senator was not so much an
advance person but just somebody to carry a bag or to run an errand, and I had started doing that
and I got to spend a fair amount of short spans of time with the Senator which eventually led to
traveling a fair bit with the Senator. Because, as you may recall, in the spring of 1970 when my
internship was, we had the emergence of Earth Day, the first Earth Day, we had both water and
air pollution bills being debated, we had Kent State, and we had the Senator who was running for
reelection as a Senator from Maine but really on a national platform as a precursor to the 1972
presidential run. So he was running and speaking everywhere, and I dare say that the mere
mention of his name opened doors everywhere.

AL: And who were some of the other people you worked with in the office, do you recall?

TA: I do, Bob Shepherd was the press secretary. He's still in Brunswick. There was a fellow
named Jack, and I'm sorry I don't recall his last name, but he was the administrative assistant at
the time and he had, his assistant was a woman named Fern [Burns Campbell], so they were sort
of the office overseers. Gayle Cory had returned to Maine, this is Gayle Fitzgerald, Buzzy
Fitzgerald's sister, had returned to Maine just at that point, I believe she had ended her long
tenure there in 1969 as the executive assistant or administrative assistant to the Senator in his
Washington office. I remember numbers of other staffers, but we were crammed into, the
Senator had one office that was his, then there was a sort of a reception area, and then there was
a bowling alley next door to it, I mean by that a long skinny space where we had crammed most
of our mail operations, and one other office; no dividers within these two quote unquote
"working" offices.

And the Senator's mail jumped dramatically, I do not remember the numbers, but as a Senator
from Maine he would not have been expected to get a great deal of legislation, but as the
proponent of clean air and clean water legislation, and as a touted candidate for the next coming
presidential election, he was getting reams and reams and reams of mail all being processed
through this tiny little office. I mean, I look at the suites of offices that the senators and congress
folks have today and I'm just amazed. But we had a very dedicated staff, he had wonderful

people around. He had a woman named Susan, Webster might be the name, but Susan from
Biddeford, who worked diligently on community projects, that is to say fixing problems for
members of the community and development of community projects. I spent a lot of time
working with her, drafting responses to letters and so forth that would be reviewed by someone,
either Susan, sometimes by the Senator if it was a particular dicey subject or delicate political
issue. Sometimes the Senator would sign it as it was, sometimes he'd completely rewrite it, or
anything between.

AL: Did you have any contact with Don Nicoll while you were there?

TA: I had indirect contact. Don was already promoted to running the sort of the national level
of things. So although he might have had various titles within the staff, he really was on the
national campaign effort and he was working more out of both Maine and the L Street office.
There was a piece of the operation, a political piece, which was not on Capitol Hill because of
law, and that was in the Covington & Burling Law Office I think, it was a sublet from Covington
& Burling. Berl Bernhard was a burly and very devoted booster of Senator Muskie. And I was,
among other things, I would shuffle back and forth a couple times a day between the L Street
office and the Hill office and carrying various bits and pieces, or running errands from both, and
so forth.

AL: And then you came back to Maine and went to law school the next fall?

TA: It was actually, that fall that I came back the Senator was still running for the reelection
effort for the Senate, so I was in my senior year at Orono at that point so I was able to still
participate, and probably did so more than study. But we had a wonderful, just a wonderful
election night celebration in Waterville, and we all knew that bigger things were coming. And it
was such a strong, wonderful turnout in the senatorial election that everything looked rosy. And
that was I think pretty much the time when the Senator said to me in no uncertain terms, ¡°Go to
law school, and if I get elected in 1972 you can take a leave from law school and have a job with
me. If I don't get elected, finish your law school and you'll have a career.¡± As it turned out, I
didn't get the job, I got the career.

AL: What was it like when you were driving Senator Muskie places, was he different in the
car, one-on-one, rather than in the office?

TA: He was. And they tell me that he was starting to show the pressures of this national
presence and this national effort to become recognized and to get support for the forthcoming
presidential election. The Senator was an absolutely brilliant man, and he surrounded himself
with brilliant people, as far as I was concerned. Don Nicoll was one, Leon Billings who crafted
so much of the environmental legislation. Eliot Cutler, a fellow who not only worked on the Hill
but went to law school and managed to excel at both, and he's gone on to excel in environmental
law since setting up his practice in Washington.

The speechwriters that were working with the Senator seemed to me to be wonderful people.
There was a fellow on loan from the Smithsonian, a fellow named Hume Horan, in fact I believe
Jack, the administrative assistant, I believe, had actually been at the Smithsonian perhaps before

coming to work for Senator Muskie. These people were brought in to raise the profile of the
Senator on a national level, and the Senator, being very bright, had a smaller tolerance initially
for the politics of the national stage. He really wanted to produce an excellent product in the
Senate regarding water and air pollution standards, and it frustrated him no end that people could
not see the obvious benefit of passage, or the obvious results of failing to pass it. So oftentimes
in private moments he would vent his frustration.

In fact, one time I remember I was the direct butt of that frustration. We had a, it was a
Memorial Day sweep where there had been a small plane chartered out of Maine, a fellow named
Harry Winger was the pilot and had been piloting the Senator for years and years, in fact when
he was governor [sic Harry Winger started flying Muskie during his senatorial years] and so
forth. But Harry had come down from Portland with this particular plane to pick up the Senator
to go to a site in Pennsylvania for a speech, and then it was on to Connecticut, and then it was on
to Portland where the Senator would be for the Sunday and Monday Memorial Day. And he had
I think two or three speeches here in Maine, but he certainly had two to give on the way up.

Well, I had the day before, the Friday before we left, gone with him and, now, let me back that
up. I had taken out speeches from the office in town and brought them out to his library in
Maryland where he lived, and left the packet on the desk. And then I'd gone back and packed
the necessaries bag that, we developed a sort of an essentials bag that had to go with the Senator.
It wouldn't be anything like what they would carry today, I'm sure.

But if memory serves, it was Saturday morning that we met, I picked him up and we went to the
airport, met Mr. Winger and took off. The Senator had with him his first speech. Then he
looked at me, after having given the first speech and we're back in the air, and he said, ¡°So,
where are the other ones?¡± And of course there was this terrible draining of all color from my
face, I'm sure, because I felt absolutely ill. I said, ¡°Well Senator, I brought them out to the house
yesterday.¡± And no one had told the Senator. So I think he had three or four more speeches to
give that weekend, and I will just tell you, there was no one in the crowd that would have known
that he was speaking extemporaneously. He was powerful, he was convincing, he was on track,
he had his message honed without so much as a note. So, having as I say been the focus of his
frustration, I saw the wrath firsthand but I certainly understood it, but it only served to
underscore my respect for him as both a policy maker and a speaker.

AL: So when you started law school, were there others in your class who had become well
known in Maine because their, about that time period that you were in law school I know there
were just a lot of people who have gone on to be very successful.

TA: There were I think five people in my law school class of sixty, sixty odd, that wanted to
be governor. We had all the politicos from University of Maine Orono, we had the politicos
from Colby, Phil Merrill was there, Jock McKernan was in my class.

AL: Janet Mills?

TA: Janet Mills was a year, was actually two years behind me but her sister-in-law Meg
[Johnson] was in my class, Meg was at that time married to Peter Mills. Turner, Steve Turner,

who had been in politics at Orono. Stephen Hughes out of Lewiston area who had been in
politics and been on the board of trustees at the University of Maine. And Charlie Jacobs, who
has been recent commissioner for the King administration. I may have forgotten some of those
people, but those -

AL: That¡¯s a big group.

TA: And the level of political, oh, excuse me, I forgot one of the most obvious, Jim Tierney, I
beg your pardon. Jimmy was actually not only in law school, but he was actively in the
legislature at the same time throughout his law school career. Jock was his first, I believe that's
right, his first year and a half in law school. So we had this first hand reporting system when
they managed to get to class at the same time, these guys would be reporting on the Democratic
and the Republican viewpoint of what was going on. And it was a, just a wonderfully exciting
time, wonderfully exciting time.

AL: I imagine it gave another aspect to law school, having so many politically active people in
your class.

TA: It did, and there were a number of us who were active, Phil Merrill being certainly
prominent among those, and Jim Tierney, who were active in the presidential effort on behalf of
Senator Muskie. So up through the time when the Senator was out of the race, we worked hard
along with many, many other people whenever we could find a way to give a hand to the effort
because we just believed in him. And I still to this day think America was impoverished by the
selection it made instead of selecting the Senator as the next president.

AL: So you weren't real active at that time, during the presidential nomination stage?

TA: Actually we were, probably more so than our law school careers tolerated, but again, we
were not, I dare say none of us expected to practice law. Right down through the list of people I
just mentioned, I don't think anybody really anticipated they were going to practice law. My
avowed purpose was literally to get the discipline, the training, of a legal education. I had no
expectation of practicing law privately.

AL: And when did you change your mind?

TA: It happened in the summer between completion of my second year in law school and the
start of my last year, third year. I was an intern up in the Ellsworth and Bar Harbor as a student
prosecutor. And as luck would have it the district attorney up there met me on the first day and
sort of said, ¡°Well, we'll ease you into this.¡± And that was at like eight o'clock and there were
trials going on in the superior court and trials going on in the district court, so he sent me a
message at ten o'clock and said, ¡°Interview the people for the afternoon trial in the district court
and do the best you can to get the case prepared.¡± And I got a message from him at twelve and
he said, ¡°Try that case.¡± And so it was baptism by fire. He then left three days later for an
extended summer vacation, so the assistant district attorney and I literally got to do ever so
much, and I found out the law was just another element of policy and it was fascinating.

I hadn't expected that I would want to be a prosecutor forever, but in my, fall of my senior year
in law school there was a clinic program where there are students who work with a faculty
adviser to assist real people with real problems, and I found out I adored it, just adored it. That's
when everything changed. In fact, Jimmy Case, who wound up working for the Senator, wound
up taking a position that I had actually said I was going to take in Washington in the Senator's
office when I got out in 1974, but a number of things conspired for me to stay in Maine, not the
least of which I met my present wife in law school, so things had changed for me. And Jim Case
was only too happy to jump in and go to Washington where he stayed for a number of years.

AL: Have you ever had a chance to follow your dreams of writing policy through your legal

TA: I have, both here and overseas. My wife and I both have this interest in working overseas
and, you know, our marriage partnership, she is able to get positions through the American Bar
Association. Working in Latvia, for example, setting up a judicial training center to create an
independent judiciary after the sort of iron heel of Communism, and just selecting judges from
among the party faithful of the Communist party. Now there is a judicial training center there,
thanks to my wife Kathryn [Monahan Ainsworth] and her work. And we did some of that work
collaboratively but mostly I've worked on some taxation policy for Latvia when I was there. I
have done a lot of development business, international business, through that kind of work.
Kathryn's gone on to work in the Ukraine. She has been in Bulgaria, Romania, all on these ABA
type projects, mostly now in the Ukraine, Bulgaria and Romania with mediation training. Last
summer she taught in Israel, mediation training, to a class of half Arabs and half Jews, and that
was just fascinating for both of us to associate with that.

But on the local level I do, I'm right now chair of a task force for the city of Portland regarding
regional planning, apropos of the current governor's plan to regionalize what can be regionalized
to achieve a better benefit, either cost wise or higher level of benefits for the same dollars. I
have been involved in making policy regarding the neighborhood where Catherine and I live
relative to being involved in the neighborhood association, working with various city
departments, including the airport and so forth, so yes.

AL: Now, you said you also were at the University of Maine in Orono at the same time Steve
Muskie was?

TA: Yes.

AL: And you knew him a little bit there?

TA: Yes, certainly did, he was in my class, as was his wife Lexi. Steve was at the opposite
end of the campus, so I don't want to give the impression that we were close friends, we were
not. But we certainly were more than casually acquainted, and he knew my older brother a little
bit better than I. My brother had been at the campus two or three years that I was there, my older
brother was there, and he and Steve were, roomed close by each other in the first year. So Steve
was a very quiet, artistic person, but he had that, just has a wonderful sense of humor, just
wonderful sense of humor.

AL: And what was your brother's name?

TA: Ed.

AL: Ed.

TA: I dare say that part of the ease with which I was able to slide into work with the Senator
was because I was, you know, the same age and acquainted with Steve, and we were at the same
school and so forth and so on. So it made it probably a little bit easier for the Senator to tolerate
somebody at that time when there was so much political turmoil and so much pressure on him.

AL: And I wonder if you had conversations with your parents about being chosen to do an
internship with Senator Muskie in terms of your father's long time admiration, and also your
chance to work at the Library of Congress.

TA: It was absolutely, we had many conversations about it and how fortunate I was.
Everybody alive knew that policy was changing and history was being made in the late sixties
and early seventies, everybody. You could not help but be aware of that. And to be on the scene
where that conflict of social policy was being distilled into laws charting the course of our
country for the future was heady stuff, it was just terrific. And my dad and I had conversations,
my mom and I had conversations. There could not have been a better time to work with Senator
Muskie, there couldn't have been a better place to live than in Washington, D.C. I just consider
myself the luckiest of the lucky.

AL: To jump back to the University of Maine at Orono, do you recall any activities of the SDS
when you were there? They must have been fairly active at that time.

TA: They certainly were active. I confess to you, I don't really recall a lot of the activities, it
wasn't something that interested me so I didn't follow it, and probably didn't realize as much as I
should have what they were all about. But, yes, they were very much present, very vocal, very
small minority. Again, the University of Maine campus was slow to get on the bandwagon of
other universities protesting the war in Vietnam. We were a loyalist, if you will, campus longer
than most, but not as long as others.

AL: What were your overall impressions of Senator Muskie in the whole scheme of things?

TA: Among the work that I was doing, things I was supposed to do when I was in
Washington, was to write some papers for the University of Maine Orono for the internship
program, still based with Professor Mawhinney back in Orono. And I remember in the time
period, probably May, it must have been my final paper for the term for my course, being asked
to think about my experiences.

I don't remember the exact topic, but if I can find that paper, I may still have it, I believe my
conclusion was that I feared the Senator's successes would cost him himself. And by that I meant
that his public successes would cause him to compromise continuously to the point that he lost

track, or lost touch with much of what was important to him personally. And from just my
internship in Washington, which got extended through the summer, I came back in September,
and even into the fall still doing errands up here for his family and associates, I just saw the
strain building. Steve never said anything, Melissa [sic Melinda] never said anything, Mrs.
Muskie certainly would never have said anything to me, the Senator never said anything. But it
was always, the pace was so frenetic, and every step was so important in ways that I couldn't
begin to see then and probably wouldn't now. But it continually drew him away from the course,
which he had charted for himself, which was to be the architect for environmental legislation that
was both achievable and sustainable at an increasingly restrictive pace for the decades to come.
So my overall impression is that the very political process which lent him his most public
success, swallowed him as a person, and that may have been what you saw in New Hampshire
during the infamous meltdown.

AL: Is there anything that I haven't asked you about, or that we haven't talked about that you
feel is important to add? Any anecdotes, recollections?

TA: Your comment, your question to me earlier about, was he different in private time? I
gave the response that he could be expected to be a little shorter, show a little more of the
frustration. But, I guess I want to make sure that I leave the impression that he was virtually the
same person regardless of whom he was meeting, or with whom he was speaking, whatever the
construct of the situation.

I had the privilege of sitting in on a few of the "high level" conferences that were held in the
special conference rooms under the Capitol building that are allocated to people with important
positions, committee positions, political positions and so forth. And they are frankly the old coal
bins underneath the Capitol, but they are appointed like nothing else you'd see in Washington.
And to see Governor Averell Harriman be a regular, to watch the interaction with Senator
Muskie, he was the same boy who grew up in Maine. His demeanor was the same, whether he
was giving me directions on how to get somewhere in the city, or charting policy with those
powerful people in the Senate and indeed the House of Representatives. I didn't see him interact
with a lot of international figures, but certainly virtually all of the national figures on these trips
that we might take.

I remember we went to the Carolinas and we were able to stay with the Hollings down there, and
to watch how easily his genuineness allowed him to slip right into this Southern way of being a
Democrat, and then to watch him slip into the New England way of being a Democrat. He was,
as I said, brilliant intellectually, there was just no question about that. He drove himself harder
than he would ever ask any of his staff or associates to work, and he was dedicated to perfection,
and all of those conspired to a certain amount of frustration and friction.

But to me, he was one of the most important advisers I could ever have. In fact, his picture
hangs in my office today because of his influence on me. No one in my family had ever been a
lawyer, no one had ever thought about law school. Certainly we had some teachers, and my
mother was one of them, she was both a librarian and a classical scholar teacher. But law was
the Senator, and he was very patient with me and I think with others, but you're going to have to
get that from other people. He surrounded himself with those people who had those ideals: Don

Nicoll, a professional, a gentleman, an intellectual, somebody who was capable of staying with
the Senator whatever the circumstances were. And although the Senator didn't suffer fools
easily, he also seemed to have an unerring ability to pick people who were not fools.

AL: Great, thank you very much.

TA: My pleasure.

End of Interview