Audio is available for this interview:
Interview with Frank and Diana Anastasio by Jim Ross
Summary Sheet and Transcript

Interviewee
Anastasio, Frank
Anastasio, Diana

Interviewer
Ross, Jim

Date
June 24, 1985

Place
Mexico, Maine

ID Number
MOH 007

Use Restrictions
? Bates College. This transcript is provided for individual Research Purposes Only; for all
other uses, including publication, reproduction and quotation beyond fair use, permission must
be obtained in writing from: The Edmund S. Muskie Archives and Special Collections Library,
Bates College, 70 Campus Avenue, Lewiston, Maine 04240-6018.


Biographical Note

Frank Anastasio was born in Rumford, Maine on October 4, 1913. He was the son of Sicilian
immigrants. He grew up in the Rumford area and went to school with Ed Muskie. Frank was
the oldest boy in the family and his father died when he was young. He began working at the
age of 9 to support the family, and later married Diana and became a barber.


Scope and Content Note

Interview includes discussions of: family background; Frank¡¯s childhood; going to work at age 9
for the family; school with Ed Muskie as friend; Ed Muskie¡¯s characteristics, personality, and
style; Muskie family characteristics and personalities; Ed Muskie¡¯s likes; Ed Muskie in high
school; Ed Muskie on the debating team; Ed Muskie¡¯s education; times shared with Ed Muskie;
and memories of Ed Muskie.


Indexed Names

Abbott, Lucille Hicks

Anastasio, Diana
Anastasio, Frank
Fossett, Celia Isadora (Cleary)
Breault, Elizabeth ¡°Betty¡± (Muskie)
Chaisson, Irene (Muskie)
Chouinard, Frances (Muskie)
Muskie, Edmund S., 1914-1996
Muskie, Eugene
Muskie, Josephine
Muskie, Stephen
Paradis, Lucy (Muskie)


Transcript


Jim Ross: All right, begin, what is your full name and current address?

Frank Anastasio: Frank Anastasio, 32 Kimball Avenue, Mexico, Maine.

JR: When and where were you born?

FA: Rumford, Maine, October 4th, 1913.

JR: Did you grow up in the Rumford area? You spent most of your childhood in the Rumford
area, I take it, all of it?

FA: I did.

JR: You didn't go away to boarding school or anything like that?

FA: No.

JR: Did your parents grow up in the Rumford area, or did they move to -?

FA: They came from Italy.

Diana Anastasio: Sicily.

FA: Sicily.

DA: There's a difference.

JR: Yeah, that's the truth. When did they, did they come over when they were younger, older?

FA: Well, they'd been married in Italy. He and my father came first, he came about 1908 and
my mother followed a few years later, about three years afterwards.


JR: So they'd been here about three years when you were born?

FA: No, I was born in 1913.

JR: Oh, okay, two years, whatever, all right, okay. What did they do in Rumford, what did
your father do?

FA: He was a shoe repairer, shoemaker.

JR: Did you have any relatives?

DA: Your mother was a seamstress.

FA: Oh yeah, my mother was a seamstress, that's right.

DA: And I think she was terrific.

JR: Did she work with your father?

FA: No, she was just a home person. In those days mothers stayed home.

DA: But she was professionally trained as a seamstress.

JR: Oh, all right. Was there, I'm just curious, there is a mention of a sewing club that Muskie's
sister had mentioned, that their mother might have belonged to. I was wondering, is there a
possibility your mother belonged to that?

FA: No, my mother did not belong to that, no.

JR: Belong to any sewing club or anything?

FA: No, no.

DA: They had a club, she belonged to a club with Mrs. Muskie. I remember her telling me
about it.

FA: Well, they called it, a club, sometimes that whole group (unintelligible word)?

DA: Well sure, well that was their club that always got together. She used to tell me, she told
me all about her club and Mrs., I can't remember now who else belonged to it, but I remember
her telling me about the club and Mrs. Muskie.

FA: Must have been Mrs. Muskie and, I wonder if it would have been, wouldn't be the
Barkers.


DA: How about Nellie?

FA: The Duncans? Possibly.

DA: I know she was very close to Mrs. Muskie.

FA: Oh, very close, yeah.

JR: What did they, do you know what they did in this club, or what was the tying thing, what
made them come together? Or it was just some housewives?

FA: Just some housewives that wanted to sew some clothes for their children. In those days no
one had money.

DA: Then later on they played cards. When the kids got older. I remember her telling me
about playing cards.

FA: I remember she used to go play cards, yeah.

DA: Yeah, they played cards.

FA: Well, my mother talked to you a lot, didn't she?

DA: They just did that for some kind of recreation, that's all they had for recreation was getting
together like that.

JR: All right, so yeah, would they meet often do you know?

DA: Once a week I think, you know, rotate different homes.

FA: Of course in those days they met every day, people went shopping every day. You was
bound to meet your neighbors all the time. Not like now, you go once a week, that's about it,
see.

JR: Did you have any brothers or sisters?

FA: Four brothers and two sisters.

JR: What was the age spacing, was there, did you have like two that were older and two
younger?

FA: I had an older sister, and the rest of them were all from fifteen months or two years
difference.

DA: He was the second oldest.


FA: I was the second oldest.

JR: All right, so was the oldest one, did he -

FA: Oldest was a girl.

JR: Oh, it was a girl, so she didn't really associate with Ed as much obviously.

FA: No, no, no, no.

JR: Okay, all right, what elementary school did you go to?

FA: Virginia School.

JR: What was the grades, was that one to four, and you transitioned at fourth?

FA: Right through the seventh.

JR: Right through the seventh? So that included junior high then, or was junior high -?

FA: No, junior high was the eighth grade, and we went down to the high school for the eighth
grade.

JR: Oh, so there was no junior high then?

FA: Well, no, no, not in those days, no. You went to Virginia School, then you went down to
the high school for the eighth grade, then you stayed right there and went right through the rest
of it. See, it was all in one school.

JR: All right, how many, do you remember how many students there were at this school, any
idea?

FA: Which school?

JR: At Virginia.

FA: Oh, I'd say, I was going to say, I'm trying to think of all the things I read about schools.
We had seven grades. Well I'd say perhaps it would be two-thirty, two-twenty-five, two-thirty.

JR: What was the daily routine? What was the daily routine of the school like, I mean when
would you get there, what were the classes like?

FA: We all walked to school in those days, and the school started at eight-thirty, and of course
they had recess.

JR: Which was?


FA: The girls stayed on one side of the yard, and the boys stayed on the other side. You
couldn't go over. And we all went home for dinner.

JR: All right, when was recess, what time would that happen?

FA: Oh, that would be around ten o'clock.

JR: In the morning.

FA: For fifteen minutes. Then we'd have recess in the afternoon, too.

JR: All right, when would that be, about two?

FA: That would be perhaps a little bit after two because we got out of school about three thirty,
they split it up.

JR: So what kind of courses would, what kind of classes did you, would they give you? I
mean, was there English class, history class, how did they do you remember how they split that
up?

FA: There was English, arithmetic, spelling, and they had music and they had, what was it
Mrs. Begin, what do you call it Mrs. Begin had taught? Well you didn't go there, you didn't go
to public school, did you?

DA: Well who taught you dancing?

FA: That was all part of her class.

DA: Yeah, she had stuff like calisthenics, you know, like phys-ed today.

FA: But we didn't call it phys-ed. We took up, we learned how, we danced and did things like
that, see.

DA: Exercise.

JR: Yeah all right, so what you'd do is in the morning you'd have classes from eight-thirty to
ten, whatever they'd be, there'd be different, I take it that -

FA: We had the same teacher all the time, we didn't move, you know.

JR: All right, okay, so this one teacher taught the same things.

FA: That's right, yeah, yeah, she taught her own class.

JR: All right, so that the same teacher would also teach the like athletics or the P.E., like

whatever Mrs. Begin -?

FA: Well there was athletics, this Mrs. Begin came in once a week and we got dancing. And
we'd get, Mrs. Swett would come in once a week and we'd get music over there. But any other
time, of course those days you had, you said your prayer in the morning, saluted the flag, and
then you had your other things.

JR: Okay, so then you had a, I take it dinner you mean lunch?

FA: Well, we had lunch. Lunch, yeah, yeah. Now it's lunch, those days it was dinner.

JR: So for dinner you'd go from twelve to one, or you'd, how long did you have for lunch?

FA: Oh, it would be about, I'd say more like half past eleven to one.

JR: And you'd go home for that.

FA: Oh yes.

JR: They never served lunch, or dinner, at the -

FA: The only lunch, who could eat in school were people who ate, from around the farm areas.

JR: They lived far away?

FA: That's right, and those are the ones that came in, if they were lucky their folks had some
kind of car, or the town had a bus, too, for them, see.

DA: But they didn't have cafeterias then, you had to bring your own lunch.

FA: No, no cafeteria, no, no, had to bring your own lunch, right.

JR: And so in the afternoon you'd have, I mean you'd continue classes.

FA: Yeah, continued with my classes.

JR: Would the teacher go in the same pattern every day, teaching the same class, same, you
know, English for an hour, then whatever for, arithmetic for an hour?

FA: Yes, that's right.

JR: She would, all right, and then would the class stick together during recess, or would it just
-?

FA: Oh no, no, no. No, no, you'd turn around and, like I said, the girls had one side and the
boys had the other side. Of course the older boys were supposed to look out for the small boys,

and we'd have our ball games and things like that, you know. And you had a teacher out there,
walking around, make sure they behaved. A lot different today, you know.

JR: What kind of games did you play during recess?

FA: Oh, they had swings, and you played tag, and you played baseball. And in the springtime
you played marbles, everybody got dirty and muddy with marbles.

DA: Chase the girls.

FA: Chase the girls, of course, yeah, but you weren't supposed to. Don't do that, don't do that.

JR: And, so I take it you'd do the same kind of thing in the afternoon, your afternoon recess?

FA: Oh yeah, yeah.

JR: Okay, then after, at the end of school, when school ended at, what time would it end?

FA: About three-thirty.

JR: Three-thirty. Would you hang around school, or would you leave?

FA: Well, we'd all go home.

JR: So there would be like no you know playing around the old gym set or whatever?

FA: No, no, sometimes you stayed in the schoolyard, yeah, but then you could only stay in
schoolyard just so long anyhow. The truant officer would chase you away.

JR: Oh, really?

FA: You might stay to play ball or something if you didn't have a ball field around your house.
But most of the time you had ball games and went out and played ball.

JR: So, but you, the truant officer -?

FA: Those who played ball. I had to work all the time. I started work very young.

JR: Okay, so you had to work for your father, or you had to go -?

FA: No, I lost my father when I was eight and a half years old.

JR: So where did you go work when you were, well?

FA: I shined shoes for a while.


JR: So after school you would just go right to -?

FA: That's right, I went to my work. And then I turned around and I went, I worked in a
barbershop, took up, I started working in a barbershop. That's where I learned barbering.

JR: And I hear you still have that, don't you, around here now?

FA: Yeah, I still do that.

JR: All right, okay, that's what I've heard. So you would then, you'd go and do your work, and
then you'd go to, after that, what time would you go home for dinner?

FA: Sometimes I'd be lucky to get home at ten o'clock.

JR: Oh really, at night?

FA: Yeah. We had what they called the Rumford Mechanics Institute. It was a place more,
something like the Y, and you could go in there at any time. You had to belong, cost a couple
dollars a year, and that was on the island, downtown, and of course I'd hang around there a lot.
A lot of the guys hung around there, but I hung around more than the others because I was down
there. But most of the time I was working.

JR: For the family, I take it, you were working.

FA: In those days you worked for the family. Everything went home.

JR: Everything went home. And so your brothers and sisters, when they got of age, too, I
guess they worked also.

FA: When they got about ten years old, eleven or twelve years old, they went to work.

DA: He went to work when he was nine.

JR: Is that, did your mother ask you to go to work, or did you -?

FA: Didn't ask, mother says, my mother says, ¡°Frank, you're the oldest one in the family now,¡±
of course male, ¡°And now you've got to take care of the family. that's all.¡± So you just went
out, and took care of the family.

JR: That must have been an awful burden when you're nine.

FA: I didn't look at it that way, burden, everybody did, everybody did those things in those
days, that's it. Everybody's spoiled today, everybody's spoiled today. I mean, I don't everybody
to lose a father, don't get me wrong, but this idea about having to go to work don¡¯t hurt anybody,
you know.


JR: Did you ever, I take it when you said earlier you walked to school with everybody, you
did walk to school with Ed?

FA: Oh, well yeah, see, we were neighbors, right next door there. And when we, of course we
lived in Virginia all the time, and then we went over and moved in a house that Mr. Muskie
owned so we were neighbors. And that's why I got to know Ed a lot, played a lot of horseshoes,
played pass, football season, football, and went down skating, we all skated on the river. None
of this idea of skating in a skating rink, you know. And we'd put anything we could on our feet.
There wasn't nothing like a fifty-dollar pair of skates, you know. You just put on any pair of
skates. Went skiing together, we were surrounded by all hills, you'd go skiing together.

JR: All right, going back to, when you go to school, when you went to school in the morning
with Ed, would you like meet at a certain place? What was that like, I mean how did you, would
you, did you always meet at like seven-thirty or eight?

FA: You didn't make any, you just started to school and the first guy you knew, ¡°Hi Joe.¡± You
know, and you get together and they tagged along, that's all. Of course, after a while when we
started going to high school, you'd meet like that, we'd meet Ed every morning, you know, we'd
more or less walk down to school.

DA: And that walk was what?

FA: A mile and a half.

DA: Well, I figured close to two miles.

FA: Oh, it could be. And then we'd -

DA: Oh, I'd say two miles.

FA: We'd go home for lunch too, see, for dinner.

JR: And you'd usually walk with the same group.

FA: Well, at that time. Then as you got older you more or less got different groups.

JR: So then how many, well okay, in elementary school, how many kids were there that would
tromp down to elementary school in the morning?

FA: What do you mean now?

JR: How many kids would kind of -?

FA: See, elementary school was only Virginia. We didn't have to walk that far. But when we
went down to high school then we, oh christ, everybody went to high school it might have been;
from that area it could have been perhaps two hundred or so, two hundred, two hundred and

fifty.

JR: Okay, when you were, in elementary school you did walk with Ed I take it, right?

FA: Oh yeah, with Ed, yeah.

JR: What was it, what was he like going to school? Was he very serious, somber, or what, I
mean would he just go and like - ?

FA: Like any young fellow, like any boy, see. Well, he was more serious, oh yeah, serious,
and Ed was the type sometimes he'd just get out of school and next thing you know he's home,
he'd run all the way home. (Unintelligible phrase), I don't know.

DA: Well, he wanted to study (unintelligible phrase).

FA: Oh yeah, after he was in high school, he was a very good bookworm in high school. Oh
yeah, he was a regular bookworm, he studied and studied and studied.

JR: So did, so when you were all walking together would he usually, I mean would he usually
go with, was he usually kind of quiet and kind of in the back?

FA: Oh he did his talking, no, he did his talking like the rest.

JR: So he was pretty much always, he was visible. It wasn't like he was the, you know, the
quiet -?

FA: Oh no, he was visible. Oh yeah, he could be talked to and approached and everything.
But he led his own life, he, like, of course he was certainly different. He always enjoyed going
to church, see. I don't know if you're a Catholic, now Catholics we have Lent, see, and he was
bound to go to church. Every morning on our way to school he went to church, and then of
course I got to go with him. Not that he was a holy Joe or anything, but I myself in no foolish
way said, ¡°This guy's going to church enough to be a priest, see.¡± His sister Irene didn't like that,
she said, he's (unintelligible phrase) be a priest, but.

JR: Yeah, she said that they didn't enjoy, they had to be kind of pulled along at church, you
know, when they had to go. Okay, during recess, was he out there playing ball or whatever, or
playing, I mean was he just, you know, or was he -?

FA: Well, he might not have been that bookish for a short time like that, he might have been,
go out there perhaps and talk but I don't think he'd be the type that just, outside, wanted to play
all the time, I don't think he'd be that type, see.

JR: Okay, so he was a real, okay so then he was, he wasn't very athletic, I mean -

FA: Well, to try and make an athlete in high school, he was quite tall, they tried to make him a
basketball player (unintelligible phrase). Then they did get him to do some track. I guess he

won a couple of meets. They tried to make high jumper out of him. He wasn't, no, he wasn't
athletic. He had to work at it.

DA: As far as basketball one, basketball two, three and four, track, one two, three, four.
Indoor track four. And this was you, I thought I'd take this out and show you.

FA: But he had to work at it, that's one thing. He had to work at it. Like I say, you could do it,
you'd say, ¡°Come on, Ed, I think you can do this.¡± And I think he had, he felt just enough guts
that I'm going to try and do it, see. But he never was a star, you know, I mean never. Although
in basketball he was a substitute center one year. I don't think they played him that much, but he
did play, he went out, when he was asked he went out.

JR: When you came home, when you, you said he would sometimes just all of a sudden be
home, you'd be out of school and he'd, you know, be ahead of everybody.

FA: Well that's when we went to Virginia School, he more or less was like that, yeah.

JR: Would he usually just go right home and, was he a bookworm, would you consider him a
bookworm when he was younger?

FA: Well, I think he read. I don't think he read perhaps the same type of books he did when he
was in high school. In high school, I think when he was younger he read perhaps some of these
Tom Sawyer books we had in those days. I did, too, see. And I think some people read, they
can't leave a book long enough, they have to hurry up and see what it is, see.

JR: So he, so for the most part he would just go home. What would he do after dinner, I mean
after school? Would he just go home and, would you two get together?

FA: Oh, at night, oh yeah. You'd go out with a bunch of kids, you played. You went out and
played hide-and-go-seek and everything, oh sure. Mothers had to come in, come on, about time
to go in the house; it's half-past eight, nine o'clock, sure. That's when I was home, because I was
working, see. That would be more or less on weekends. Oh yeah.

JR: So, often you weren't home to play with other neighborhood kids.

FA: Well, I still think I played enough. I don't think I was home as much as the others, I think,
but I made sure that I got into it sometime or other.

JR: When did you study? You know, when did you study for Virginia. I mean, did you -?

FA: I took books home, but I don't think I ever looked at them.

DA: You didn't have time.

FA: You don't have time.


DA: He had such a high I.Q., and he didn't have a chance to develop it, because he had to go to
work from the time he was nine years old.

JR: You and Ed were not in the same class. He was older than you?

FA: No, I was a class ahead of him.

JR: Oh, you were a class ahead of him.

FA: I was six months older then him, born in October and he was born in March.

DA: And you skipped a grade, that's why. That's right, you didn't go to the third grade.

FA: I know, I know.

JR: During, when you went home for lunch, right, did you, what, you'd go to your house and
he'd go to his house? Or did you ever eat lunch together or anything?

FA: Oh, gosh, yeah, he was at my house as much as I was at his house.

JR: Really.

FA: Oh sure, sure, sure.

JR: You just, would he, would your mother say, ¡°Well why don't you come over for dinner,¡±
or, ¡°Well yeah, come over for dinner?¡±

FA: Well, you did anyhow. And we used to play a lot of cards. One thing about the Muskies,
they liked to play cards and we played a lot of cards. And every time one of the mothers made,
Mrs. Muskie made a cake or something, and once in a while Mr. Muskie made some home brew,
and he did give us a drink.

JR: Really?

FA: Well, why not.

JR: What would they, what would you eat for dinner? If you were at the Muskie's, what
would you eat, what was it usually they'd be fed?

FA: Well actually, I wouldn't say we actually sat down and had dinner, but there was always
something you could have, a sandwich or something, you know. I suppose they expected, they
knew my mother expected me home and vice versa, see. Of course, Ed would (unintelligible
phrase
) house and my mother, just like all mothers in those days, had something on the stove,
you know. And we'll say she had a meatball, ¡°Want a meatball?¡± You'd take a meatball or
something. Or you want a piece of cake, sure, see. (Unintelligible phrase).


JR: So you'd just bound in there with (unintelligible word)?

FA: Oh sure, sure, yeah, yeah.

JR: And so and he'd do, I take it he'd do the same thing at your house if you're together, you
know, and just get something to eat. So then what would you do, would you, what would you do
with the time? Would you spend it mostly eating, or would you spend it, would you just take a
quick bite and then go out and play?

FA: Oh yeah, find someone that we might have been playing Dutch horseshoes, or playing
pass, or going down and playing ball down at the field. We had a couple of fields up at Virginia,
see. And right now, every time somebody get a piece of land they put a sign up, no trespassing.
But those days, they was there for use, you used it, that's all.

JR: Well now, you mentioned pass, what is pass?

FA: Baseball, see, you get a, one guy get on one side and the other and just play pass.

DA: Throw a ball back and forth, just catch.

FA: Catch, catch, all right?

JR: So he would do that, he would -?

FA: Oh yeah, he'd do all that, yeah. And football, we'd go up there and fool around with a
football in football season. And go down to the river and skate. And we'd make our little jumps
and we had skis, ski jumping.

JR: So you, I mean, he would definitely, he was, I mean it sounds to me like he was relatively
athletic. I mean, he wasn't like, you know, a varsity athlete, but he -

FA: No, but he was willing to try anything.

JR: Yeah, it sounds like he had fun going out and playing.

FA: Oh yeah, yeah.

JR: Did his father ever, you know, get out there with you all and play with you?

FA: No, no, no, no, his father was a, he'd leave in the morning and go down to the tailor shop.

JR: So he would, but even for dinner, he wouldn't come back and, you know, would he just,
did you ever eat dinner with -?

FA: I don't think Mr. Muskie came home until evening at supper. They called it supper in
those days.


DA: Farmers in those days didn't go out and do that.

FA: No, and then when he got home -

DA: They were all work.

FA: Yeah, and when he come home the first thing he did, like all fathers, he run the garden.
They had a beautiful garden, and they also had a flower garden. Mrs. Muskie had a flower
garden, but Mr. Muskie always had a good garden, yeah. And that's what they did, they didn't go
out.

JR: They didn't, they wouldn't spend that much time with the children, well I mean they
would, but not playing outside and stuff like that?

FA: Oh no, no, no. Of course in summer time, Mr. Muskie did own a car and they'd go to the
pond, go swimming.

JR: All right.

FA: Mr. Muskie would go swimming. I always used to watch him swim, even before he died,
I used to like to see him swim on his back. He'd be out in the water and he'd stay there all day
long, I thought how can that man do it? And of course Ed, I don't know if anybody ever told
you, but Ed liked to fish, you know. There was a, he used to go fishing with this, his father and
Mr. Gagnon. You heard that, too, right? They'd go up to the lakes a lot there, and this Mr.
Gagnon was quite a fisherman. And Ed really liked fishing. I never went fishing in my life, I
worked too much, see. But Ed did like it very, very much, yeah.

JR: So you never went like fishing or hunting with him?

FA: No.

JR: Where did he pick up his, I know that his father would go hunting, but he wasn't really, he
never really, from what Irene said, he never shot anything. He didn't really, may have not had
the heart to do it, but he enjoyed getting outside.

FA: Who's that, Mr. Muskie?

JR: Yeah.

FA: That's right, he enjoyed that. I don't know if he ever caught any game really, I don't know.
Of course Irene would know. But I used to go, this Mr. Gagnon was quite a sportsman, and they
lived on the other, right near the Muskies.

JR: They were next door, were they next door neighbors?


FA: Oh yeah, next door neighbors, yeah. There was the Muskies and the Anastasios and the
Gagnons, see.

JR: All right, so they were two doors down basically.

FA: Yeah.

JR: Okay, now the houses that, okay this neighborhood that you, okay, with the Muskies and
you all then, the Gagnons, is that all area, is that still up, standing, are those houses still
standing?

FA: Still standing, still standing.

JR: All right, I will have to go visit that sometime.

DA: What they call the Virginia section of town.

JR: Virginia section?

DA: Well, the family who first settled it, their name was Virgin, and that's why they called it
Virginia.

JR: All right, what is, okay, there's an area around here, Chelsire, Chelshire, something like
that, and Pettingill?

FA: There was Chisholm School. Pettingill was (unintelligible word), that's why I guess -

DA: The Chisolms started the mill here.

FA: Ed might have gone to Pettingill School the first year or two of school, I don't know,
before we moved in. He might have, because they lived on Knox Street for a while, and that's
torn down now. But Virginia, when Ed was running for vice presidency with Humphrey there,
vice president, in that section I guess they all thought he was, they automatically thought he was
going to win. He went in there and (unintelligible phrase).

DA: And the old Virginia School is gone, that's not there, that's been torn down.

FA: Yeah, the old, I miss that, I wish it was still up.

JR: All right, you said that you all would go out after dinner, or would you go out after dinner
and play, or was it before, just before a dinner or after dinner?

FA: Well, we was out playing any time, any times we had. We had no TVs or (unintelligible
word
) in the house or anything else. Sometimes you walked in one door and grabbed something
and out you went, see. You couldn't leave your games or what you were doing.


JR: Did Eugene ever accompany you?

FA: Eugene, his brother? Yeah, because that's quite a guy, quite a guy, Eugene.

JR: Now what was their relationship like as brothers, were they close, or did one outshine the
other? Because I've heard that Eugene was a relatively, the kids loved him, from what I've
heard, while Ed was not as, was more outspoken I guess with the kids.

FA: Well, the point is, poor Eugene, he was always compared to his older brother, like a lot of
these young brothers and older brothers are. And he'd get mad, see. And Ed was a model boy as
far as everyone was concerned, you know, he was the oldest son. And, ¡°Why can't you be more
like Ed,¡± they'd say. ¡°Why can't you be more like Ed?¡± And poor Eugene would say, ¡°Damn
him, dammit.¡±

JR: Well what was Eugene like then that made him different from Ed?

FA: Just different character. He didn't run after books or anything, he didn't give a damn about
that. And he's just a different, he dressed, he didn't care whether he dressed as good as Ed did,
he was -

JR: So he was much more carefree than Ed.

FA: He was carefree, all right.

JR: So you, what would you, how would you, okay, describe him. I mean, if you had to, you
know, say, give me a couple adjectives of what Eugene was like, all right, what, develop for me
what he was, you know, what kind of a person he was as a child and all that.

FA: Well, first thing, I think he was rougher than Ed, real rougher, and I think he spoke
rougher, his words were, he didn't care. And he'd get out there and he could talk about anything.
He'd curse and, just like kids, that's all, he just didn't give a damn about anything.

JR: Ed was more refined in a way?

FA: Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

JR: Okay, did you ever see, did anyone ever resent, well okay, did Eugene ever resent kind of
Ed's, you know, having to live up to Ed, his perfection?

FA: Well I don't think he meant to, I don't think he wanted to. But we could see it, but we all
got a kick out of it. Of course Ed would (unintelligible word) a lot of things, you know.

JR: Like what?

FA: Like what for instance. If you were playing a game with him and he lost, he got mad, you
know. Oh yeah, oh sure, sure.


JR: He didn't like to lose.

FA: No, he didn't like to lose, no nothing, that's the main impression, what he was. Like you
say how could he come out of a family and be a poli-, and go as high as he did, that was it.

DA: Because he had to be a winner.

FA: He had to be a winner, see.

DA: That, you know, that is not a bad point.

FA: No, that didn't hurt.

DA: I mean if you just have to be a winner, you're going to work that much harder to get there.

FA: Because I told that to someone who was interviewing me when he was running, I says, all
I can think of, these little things that he did when he was a kid. Once in a while he'd get mad,
¡°Oh, Jesus Christ,¡± he'd say. ¡°Goddamn you Wop, you're too damn lucky.¡±

Yeah, but you see, like, remember I was telling you how he wasn't athletic but he tried,
(unintelligible phrase). And I think that's what, that's, that carried on longer, and I think after he
met this Miss Cleary [Celia Isadora (Cleary) Fossett] there, whatever her name is, Mrs. . . . She
took a real shine to him, took a real shine to him and got him out to debate. Because I don't think
Ed could get up and talk any more than I could, I try and get up and talk in front of people. But
he, she made a debater out of him, and she did a good job. He was a damn good debater, oh boy,
there, for three, four years they beat everything that come along in, I think it was (unintelligible
phrase
) or somebody else, they beat everyone, and Ed was real, real good. And I think that's
where he got all his stuff as far as being a public speaker, and as far as getting down and figuring
out what he's going to say when somebody else was talking. And I think it all came from this
Mrs. Cleary, and I think she picked out, she picked that up, she sensed it I think when she got
hold of this guy.

JR: Very intuitive of a teacher, that's very rare in a teacher (unintelligible word).

FA: Of course Ed was more apt to get in a corner and say nothing, where you and I might get
in a corner and say something. And I think she just figured, I'm going to get this guy out of
there.

JR: Yeah, try and bring him out. When Ed as a youngster got mad, what would, all right, let's
say he lost at a game of cards, what would he do, would he get up and leave and throw the cards,
or what would he do?

FA: He'd get mad. Oh yeah, he'd get mad, oh yeah, throw the hand around, or look at his sister
and get mad at her and everything else, that's right.


JR: So he was kind of a terror when he got, when he lost, I take it.

FA: Well, I don't think he was a terror, but in that sense, all right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

JR: Would he try again, I mean would he immediately give it another shot?

FA: Oh sure, sure, he'd play it again.

DA: It was not the sort of thing that lasted.

JR: (Unintelligible phrase).

FA: No, no, it wasn't a thing like, he'd know, but he'd play again, yeah, but for the time being
he'd (sound effect), he'd start it again.

JR: Were there other times where Ed would, you know, would, Ed would resent, you know,
like kids picking on him or, I mean not that they did, but what were the things that Ed resented,
or would resent?

FA: Well, they couldn't pick on him because Ed wouldn't stick around long enough to be
picked on. He found out things weren't just right, he'd get the hell out of the way, so he's not
going to get picked on.

JR: So, yeah, okay.

FA: I don't think he was, I don't think he looked for trouble, trouble. If he sensed it, I think he
just moved away. Good point.

JR: So he didn't, he wouldn't confront.

FA: No, he wasn't -

JR: Not when he was younger.

FA: No, he wasn't the kind of a guy to say, ¡°Okay, you want to fight, come on, put a chip on
my shoulder and throw it off and I'll fight you.¡± That's the old, that's what we used to do years
ago, see. If a guy wanted to fight, he'd put a chip, I don't know, (unintelligible phrase), he just
put a chip, now you knock that off and I'll give you a licking. The guy would knock it off and he
had to fight, everybody would get around in a circle and watch the fight.

JR: But he wouldn't, he wouldn't get involved in it.

FA: No, no, no, no, no, no.

JR: Did other kids bother him, or perhaps might have bothered you about your ancestry, him
being a Pole and you being -?


FA: Well, those days it was more obvious than it is today. Not that much, not to the point
where it was real bad, but it was nothing for somebody down the street says, ¡°Hey, you Pollack,¡±
you know. Or, ¡°You Wop,¡± something like that, see. And you won't hear that any more. Well,
the French were the frogs, French was frog, ¡°Oh you old frog.¡±

JR: F-A-R-U-D.

DA: Frog, F-R-O-G.

FA: F-R-O-G.

DA: A Frenchman was a frog. But you know, I never ran into that. The neighborhood I lived
in, I didn't -

FA: But you don't hear that any more. Well, it wasn't so much neighborhoods, as we got
around town, I was around town a lot, see, and that's how you got it, that's how you got it.

JR: But it wasn't like vicious, was it?

FA: Oh, no, no, no, if you were smart you just took ¡¯em away and leave ¡®em alone and walked
away, that's all. But they did start fights amongst kids.

JR: Were there a lot of, was Rumford during this, during your elementary school years, was it
all reasonably, were there a lot of foreigners or immigrants?

FA: Oh geez, full of them.

JR: Really?

FA: We had Scotsmen, and we got Lithuanian, we got -

DA: A lot of French, a lot of French.

FA: A lot of French, and Nova Scotians and Italians.

JR: There were two schools, okay, now there's three grammar schools. There's a town
grammar school, which was the Virginia School. There was an English parochial school and a
French parochial school. Now, why didn't you guys go to the English parochial school, was that,
did it cost more, what was?

FA: Didn't cost that much. We were just too old.

DA: They were other grammar schools.

FA: We were just too old.


DA: Virginia Grammar School, that was just for the kids in the Virginia section. Then there
was Pettingill School and there was Chisholm School, there was Brisby School.

FA: But St. Athanasius I'm talking about, didn't start until about '28, I was practically, I was,
and St. John's, well, like you said, it was more or less, the Virginia people stayed in Virginia and
once in a while somebody would turn around and want their child to go to St. John's, where she
went, to St. John's School.

JR: All right, now why didn't you go to, I take it that, well I know Ed was Catholic, I believe,
are you Catholic?

FA: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

JR: Now why didn't you go to those?

FA: St. Athanasius? They didn't start the school in '28.

JR: Oh, okay, so those were relatively, you were out.

FA: We were out of school, we were in high school then Ed and I, all of us, we were in high
school.

JR: Would you have gone to St. Athanasius?

FA: More than likely not. I don't know why, I just say that.

DA: Well, they went in the neighborhood school. It was closer for them to go to Virginia than
walk all the way downtown to go to parochial school.

JR: Okay, all right, back to Eugene. Irene said that when the kids would, you know, come
around to play during, you know, before dinner and after dinner, that they'd come to the door to
speak to Eugene, and they'd come to play with Eugene. And did you ever see that kind of bother
Ed, I mean did you ever, did it ever bother Ed, or did it ever become kind of an obsession with
Ed to be accepted, to be liked by the little kids, or was there any of that?

FA: Well, gee, I don't know, of course I, that part of it I wouldn't know. But it was nothing for
him to bang on the door and say, ¡°Okay Johnny, are you ready to go out,¡± or ¡°Can John come
over and play today?¡± Or ¡°Can Mary come out and play with me?¡± Or something like that. I
mean, you just did that. We'd just knock on the door, yeah. So I think that's what Irene meant,
they might come over looking for Eugene but didn't ask for Ed.

JR: Were the younger children in the area, they would be just as happy to play with Ed, then, I
mean it wasn't, was Ed the kind of youngster to go out and, or was he more just kind of, to go out
and play with you, or?


FA: Well, I'd say when he was at Virginia School he more or less kicked back with a few of
his friends, and like I said, a long time, he'd go home from school, go right home, see. But I
think as he got a little older, we'll say perhaps in high school, I don't think Ed was the type of
guy that didn't like children, I think he liked children. And I think if he had to be nice to a child,
he could, oh yes. But you don't do that when you're ten, eleven, twelve years old.

JR: Did he, well then as he got older did his, did the younger kids look up to him, or did -?

FA: Well, I think they did. They had no reason not to.

JR: So for the most part he was, I mean, for what there was worth, he was respect-

FA: Yeah, he had respect, he had respect.

JR: He did very well academically from what I understand.

FA: Oh yeah, he had the respect of the kids, he really did. For that reason, like you say, that
they knew he was a academic scholar, and they knew he was polite and they knew that he was a,
he would say good day to you. But he wasn't a type that, you know, sometimes in high school
the athletes get in one group and talk, I don't know if you remember that, but what he did with it,
I think they had a lot of respect for him. And I think that carried along as he got older. People
who met him liked him, and I think that's why when he run for governor, the first governor to be
elected in quite a few years, I don't think it was party and like, do we elect the guy. We elected
him when he saw him, his support seems good and everything else, you know. Whether they
were Republicans or Democrats or what they were, I think they voted for him because they liked
him. And I think that's, then they found out he got elected and the Republicans woke up and
said, ¡°What have we done?¡± You'd be surprised how many Republicans voted for Edmund
Muskie. Well, they had to. The Republicans out-, they were six to one in the state, five and six
to one.

JR: He couldn't have been elected without the Republican support.

FA: No, no, he never could. Because we went down to, when he took the office as governor
and we sat around and all you could hear people say, gee, our party, these old Republicans, most
people, they'd say our party really had to give him the vote. And they did. And I don't think
they ever resented it, I don't think they were sorry, I don't think they were. Because I think when
he did his job as governor, he didn't say, well, I'm going towards the Democrats. I think he used
everybody alike.

JR: Yeah, okay, he didn't, all right.

FA: But he got that from his father, you know. I think that his father went through a lot in
Poland, I think a lot of people do in these poor countries. And I think that's why these people all
came to America, I think that's why my folks came to America possibly, you know, to get a little
freedom. And I think that, there's no doubt in my mind that, at times, Mr. Muskie must have told
Ed about these (unintelligible word). (Unintelligible phrase), nothing he carried on. It could

have been your first Communion and you wonder how you could have done it, and I think these
were things that did it.

JR: You went over to Ed's house quite a bit, all the time. What was the house like? Just
generally, I mean, if you walked into the house, all right, and had to say what kind of family
lived in it, by the type of furniture, what was it like?

FA: Immaculate, immaculate, yeah. And there was none of this kicking around, you sat down,
the furniture was nice, you sit down, you're welcome and, oh yeah. And I think they did have, a
piano. Irene played the piano, which I thought was a great thing. I wish I could have had a
piano and things like that. And I don't think Mr. Muskie was a, I don't think he had any when he
came to the United States, but I think if his children needed something he'd get it for them. He
didn't overdo it, though, no, but he got it for them.

JR: So would you consider him wealthy, or how, I mean -

FA: I would, it was hard to say that but, because I had nothing, see. You know, we had no
man in the house. But I'd go there and there's, I'd look around like I did a lot of homes and say,
geez, must be nice having these, you know.

JR: Did they kind of take you under their arm in a way, just because -?

FA: Oh yeah, yeah, they were good to me. They were very good to everybody around
anyhow, they were you know, oh yeah, yeah. I remember my mother approached Mr. Muskie
one time, something about a washing machine. She was going to buy a washing machine, didn't
have the money. He went out and bought the machine and she paid him back, but he said,
¡°Okay, you'll get the machine.¡±

JR: Oh, so he went out and helped her with it, and with the money. For supper, all right, I take
it you ate there every now and then, for your supper you ate over at their house every now and
then, did you?

FA: Oh, not that much. I mean, had a lot of lunches. Oh, I'll eat once in a while, but not too
much.

JR: Okay, what was it like. How did they, did they sit down for grace, or -?

FA: Oh yeah, yeah, they'd sit down. They were very, very, there was no fooling around.
When they ate, they ate, that's right. They respected what they had on the table, and they
respected everything else, oh yes.

JR: And was it like the kids just kind of, all right, you get over the grace and all that, were the
kids, was it, were the parents really, were the parents very involved with the children or was it
just pretty strict?

FA: They were involved, of course they did talk to them, but I mean they couldn't kick up their

heels, the kids couldn't, you know.

JR: Was their father a very slow eater? I got this impression from Lucy.

FA: I think the impression he was a slow eater was because he was a slow talker.

JR: Was he really?

FA: Yeah, he was a slow talker.

JR: Very slow?

End of Side A, Tape One
Side B, Tape One

FA: Well he tried his best to talk, use his best language. He was a, I mean I think he came in
this country because he must have, well like I said, a lot of these people came from their country
to get away from it, they had a reason. And I think he had a reason he wanted to get out from
what he had in Poland, I don't think he had much.

JR: Would, all right, you said he was a slow talker. What was the father like? I mean, if you
came into the house how would he treat you as, you know, as a friend of Ed's, how would he -?

FA: Oh, he'd treat you good. Any friend with Ed was a friend of his, yeah, sit down and play
cards, and he'd talk. And like I say once in a while he'd give you a drink of beer.

JR: Even when you, how old were you when he'd give you a drink of beer?

FA: Oh, well, that was more or less (unintelligible word).

JR: When you were in high school.

FA: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, we were in high school, yeah.

JR: But he was, did he, as I, what I said earlier, take you under his wing, did he look out for
you, as opposed to other people who had parents, a mother and father?

FA: There's no doubt, I think all the people did, I think more so than they do today. Yeah, I
think that, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they, we go, we help the Anastasio children and,
because I, well, you live in the same neighborhood all those years and they could see that you're
out selling papers and doing things. And they liked that, you know. In those days that's one of
the things they picked out, geez, he's ambitious, he wants to do things, he's helping. Which is
lacking today. I miss that today, I can't see people doing that today, they don't do it.

JR: Ambitiousness.


FA: They don't encourage kids doing that nowadays.

JR: Yeah, it's true. Did you ever see the father when he was like upset or anything? Did you
ever, you know, was he moody?

FA: Well, Mr. Muskie wasn't the type to start in and dance and everything else, no, no. So I
don't know about moody. I think he was serious. But he could sit down and tell stories or jokes,
oh yeah, he could do that. But I don't think he's the type of guy if you walked in he'd turn around
and, like some fellows do, you know, and act foolish like, I don't think that was him at all.

JR: You said he had a garden? Was that his, was that kind of like his little pet project?

FA: I think it was his pet project for two reasons: I think he wanted to do something, and on
the other hand he was getting something out of what he was doing, it was paying off, I mean
food for his family.

JR: So they¡¯d usually just, you know, what would they grow in that, do you know, what was
his, was it huge?

FA: Well, good, big enough garden, big enough garden.

JR: So did you see the family, or the father especially, after his shop burned down in I guess it
was like '28 or something like that?

FA: Yes, he shop burned down.

JR: What was the aura of the family like after that happened, I mean did -?

FA: Well, all he did was just turn around and start a shop somewhere else, you see.

JR: He bought a new store?

FA: Oh yeah, see, he used to be on, that's right, he bought a new store, yeah.

JR: So he must have had some -?

FA: He rented, I don't think he ever bought it, I think he just rented.

JR: He rented it from somebody, yeah. All right, so and then he had probably some insurance
on the store or the business.

FA: Oh well, yeah.

JR: All right, do you remember what happened, do you remember that, do you remember that
at all, what, how that -?


FA: No, I don't remember. I might have known at the time, but I don't remember now. He
was good worker, you know, Mr. Muskie.

JR: Did you ever visit his shop?

FA: Oh sure, he made clothes for me, I wore more clothes, suits that he made.

JR: Really.

FA: Oh, he was a, he was A-number one, he, honest to God, that man, they missed him, you
know, when he died.

JR: So he, what was his shop like? I mean, all right, before it burned down. What was that
shop like, in the, okay, there are two stories I take it, the first store was where he did all his
work, and then the second story was where he, they had living quarters or something like that?
What was that, what was the shop like?

FA: Living quarters, that must have been his first shop with living quarters. Because I don't
think he had living quarters in the second shop, I can't remember any living quarters.

JR: Okay, well okay, what was on, okay then, what was on the first floor and the second floor,
describe what, I mean you walk in and what was it?

FA: Well, the one down on Congress Street, downstairs was a shoeshine fellow, and then he
had the other shop and upstairs there was people living there, that's true. It wasn't his, because
he always lived in Virginia.

JR: So he, oh, all right, so he didn't have a, so all right, do you, I wonder how that fire started
then. Could it have been from those people living upstairs?

FA: Oh, I don't remember, I really don't remember.

JR: Okay, so he had the basement and the first floor.

FA: No, he didn't have, there was a shoeshine parlor first floor.

JR: Oh, it wasn't his?

FA: No, it wasn't his, no, it was an Italian fellow, Mr. Bevalaqua.

JR: Bevalaqua?

FA: Yeah, Drinkwater. He shined shoes and repaired shoes.

JR: All right, and then, and he only had one floor then?


FA: He only had one floor, yeah.

JR: All right, okay. What was it like in there? I mean what, can you describe what the floor
was, I mean what, you walk in, was there a counter right in front of you?

FA: I don't know.

DA: You mean in the tailor shop?

JR: Well, kind of.

FA: I went there so many times for, I worked in the barbershop then, see, with this Jack Mel,
and I had to do all the errands for him, see. You know, ¡°You go pick up my clothes, and you go
pick.¡± We had a Chinese place, ¡°Go pick up my shirts, and everything else, see.¡± And I walked
in there, it was four or five steps up and you're walking in, and to me it smelled like a tailor shop,
it smelled like clothes, see. Well, it was a tailor, hard to describe, it just, and it had a little bench
and you could see the guys working, yeah.

JR: Did he have people working for him?

FA: Oh yeah, he had a man, he had one man a long time, yeah.

JR: And he, for, was it, was that just for a little bit or was he -?

FA: No, he used him quite a while. He, fellow that came from his old country, you know, and
he gave Jimmy a break, the fellow's name was Jimmy, gave him a break.

JR: Was he the, was Mr. Muskie the only barber, tailor in the town, or were there other -?

FA: Oh no, no, no. At one time you had a lot of men who did, there was a man by the name
Shea, a tailor, and he had a couple of men, Mr. Muskie, and then there was a, (unintelligible
phrase
) was a tailor, because you (unintelligible phrase), there was a tailor (unintelligible
phrase
), and one of the tailors at (unintelligible word) was queer, I'll never forget that. What
they call, what do they call queer now?

JR: Faggot.

FA: Something like that. His name was Johnson, I still remember that, I still remember, that's
right.

DA: That's back when the word gay meant to be happy.

FA: I used to used to use the word ¡°gay¡± for this. Then we had two or three in Mexico, and
then you had two or three at, see, those days people didn't have much but when they had the suit
pressed they'd probably be able to take it to the tailor. He only charged them fifty cents but a
tailor meant it, and did a good job, see. Nowadays everybody does everything themselves to

save money. In those days they prided themselves, if they were a carpenter, I mean if they were
a tailor they did tailor work, let the carpenter do the carpenter work, see.

DA: The tailor would take his work to the carpenter.

FA: That's right, and then they all made a living that way, see, okay.

JR: Now you said that Mr. Muskie made some of your clothes.

FA: Oh yes.

JR: Now was that part of, you know, you'd pay him for these?

FA: Oh I paid him, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I paid him, yeah.

JR: What was it, I mean what, would he charge a lot, was he expensive or was he, you know,
or did he, you know?

FA: Well, I don't think Mr. Muskie meant to gyp people or to get all he could out of them, but
I think he wanted to make a living.

DA: And he had to.

FA: For the children he had to make, and I think people respected him for that, I really think
that, but I also think, now this is, I don't know if it ever happened but I wouldn't be surprised if
someone needed it he just didn't take the money. Because it's just like me, I'm a barber, if a guy
wants a haircut and I know he ain't got no money, never have a chance of getting any, I give it to
him.

JR: Was his tailor shop respected, I mean would -?

FA: Oh, he was a respected man, oh yeah, he was good. He belonged to the Elks and
whatever, they respected, I never did, I mean I didn't belong to the Elks but I know they
respected him very much, oh yeah, they looked up to him.

JR: Was he, was his father involved in a lot of different clubs, or was it just the Elks?

FA: No he, I think he belonged to a couple clubs like that, men's clubs, you know. But I don't
think he was a man that would run for any town office or anything like that. No, I don't, I think
he left that to somebody else.

JR: Turning to his mother, when you'd go, okay, let's say you, again, you go over for dinner.
As soon as you go into the house, was she very, you know, warm and was she very accepting of
you, too?

FA: Oh yeah, nice woman, yeah.


JR: How would you describe her, would she, all right, you said that the house was very clean,
was immaculate. Was she, was that her doing? I mean was she, was that, or was that, was she
the kind of woman who was very (unintelligible phrase)?

FA: Well, here's the way they did it years ago. They did the wash on Monday, they did the
iron on Tuesday, they did the housework, they did the dusting on Wednesday. And they just had
a routine so the house never got dirty. Didn't your mother do the same thing?

DA: Oh, yes.

FA: Okay, there you go, see? Now you get this, this thing you looked at, forget this. And I'm
telling you, that routine was like that over there, it's like, and well my mother did the same thing.

DA: Most of these women were women that worked eight to five, and she can't do that routine
anymore during the day.

JR: So she was doing, so she was working that routine all week.

FA: Yeah, and then going shopping like, every, those days you went shopping every day. Not
like now, you go to the supermarket once (unintelligible phrase).

DA: Or you didn't have the refrigerators you have today.

JR: So what would they, she'd do the cooking I take it.

FA: Oh yeah, she did the cooking, yeah.

JR: Okay, so, but the, I take it his father had a still and all that?

FA: A what?

JR: Some kind of a still, he made home brew you said.

FA: Oh no, no, no, they didn't have to have a still. They just, no, no, no, that was -

JR: Or, well you know what I mean.

FA: Those days if they wanted, nowadays you can go to the store and buy it. Those days, they
might have wanted it a little bit see, they made a press every, oh, once every six months or so,
whenever he had it. But there wasn't, no, no, that wasn't a house where, a so-called liquor house,
no.

JR: Oh, no, they didn't sell.

FA: So we got a kick out of it, one day when Mr. Muskie -


DA: My mother made home brew, too, for my father.

FA: My mother made beer after I got old enough, see.

JR: So it was nothing out of the ordinary.

FA: Oh no, no, no, no.

JR: All right, okay, the mother was, was the mother strict? Would you, was the mother very
disciplined?

FA: I think she was, and I think they looked up to her and they listened to her because they
knew if that didn't work and the father got home, he was, he might have been. I think Mr.
Muskie could have been strict when he had to, you know. Of course children in those days, they
did look up to their parents, yeah. And all a mother has to do is say, ¡°Well you aren¡¯t going to
do anything now.¡± When father comes home that was it. And sometimes they'd say, this may
not be right, but I'd say, sometimes they'd say ¡°A father should be a buddy to his children.¡± I
don't say ¡°buddy.¡± You should be good to them, you should be a father to them, or a mother
should be a mother to them. None of this buddy-buddy stuff, it just don't go over when you're
bringing kids up, you know. Because you're a buddy, you can't correct them. You got to be in a
position where you're the mother, you're the father, that you got to respect.

DA: That's it, the word respect. There's so little respect today.

FA: That's right, there's none, because I see it so much, oh boy.

JR: Right, yeah, I understand you. Was it, did the Muskies ever punish Ed for, or the children,
would they -?

FA: I wouldn't know that that much. I don't think, I wouldn't know what they did for
punishment, I never heard the kids talk about it, so.

JR: So they, so like you would never like, you have a situation where Ed would go, well I can't
come out and play today because Mom and Dad -?

FA: No, no, no, no, didn't run across that, no, no, no.

JR: So they never prevented them -?

FA: The only one it could have happened to was Eugene.

DA: You know, from what, he has told me a lot of, you know, we talked over the years, and
my impressions from all the things he has told me that, I doubt if Ed ever had to be punished
very much. He wasn't that, you know, that's my impression.


FA: He walked away from trouble.

DA: He wouldn't have been a kid a parent had to punish very often.

FA: Like let's say we're in school, way, way back those days, and say, he says, you know, so
and so's going to give you a lickin' after you get out of school, he's going to fight you, see. Well,
a guy like me would hang around, see. Where do you think Ed went?

JR: He'd probably go home.

FA: I don't belong there, that's right, you see? Nothing wrong with that, you know.

JR: He had his own -

FA: I wouldn't get in the scrap for anybody, but I just wanted to see what the hell it was like.

JR: All right, would Ed ever, if, would he stick up for his friends or what he believed in? I
mean, if someone challenged him, would, I mean not physically fight it, but would he say -?

FA: Oh, I think if you was playing a game and he thought you were right, I think he'd say
something. But like you say, that's about it, he wouldn't want to get ferocious about anything
else.

JR: But he would stick to, I mean, it wouldn't be a matter of physically overcoming, he'd still
believe it. I mean, he wouldn't -?

FA: Oh yeah, he'd stick to his guns. That's something else, too, I think that helped him as he
got older. Not to a point where he wouldn't, if he was wrong, if he found out he was wrong he
wouldn't change his mind, but you had to prove him wrong.

JR: Did, as Ed grew older in the, you know, seventh, eighth, ninth, you know, into high
school, did his parents, how did he and his parents get along? I mean, you go through adolescent
years, you know, there's a lot of turmoil.

FA: Oh yeah, yeah, good, no, no, he, no everything was -

JR: So he never got into fights with them even during that period?

FA: I don't think he ever did, no, no, no.

JR: Or not, you know, mildly nasty?

FA: No, I never knew of anything like that. The only time I think Ed got mad at me is when I
hung a May basket for him. Because we had to have, hang a May basket for May Day, see, May
1st, and of course in those days we had a lot of horses going around the street. They left things
on the street, so I put some in a basket, knocked on the door, ¡°May basket for Edmund Muskie.¡±

What Mrs. Muskie said, when she come out she saw the May basket, said ¡°When I catch that
Frank Anastasio, I'll wring his neck.¡±

JR: Mrs. Muskie said that?

FA: Mrs. Muskie said that, sure. Well what are you supposed to say?

(All speaking at once.)

FA: I don't think she said that to Ed, but I think she just forgot about it.

JR: Did Ed ever find out about this?

FA: I guess he knew, but.

JR: Just a joke.

FA: A kid's thing, that's all.

JR: All right, when family, all right, actually, the sisters, what were, you know, Irene and Lucy
and Betty -

FA: Frances and Betty.

JR: And Frances and Betty, what was that, what were like? I mean, all right, I guess, Irene,
actually I'll just start with Irene, was Irene a leader? What was she like, was she kind of a prissy
person, or was she a, I mean did you like her? I mean not, you know, did you like get along with
her?

FA: Oh, Irene had three or four girlfriends, there were about three or four of them. And, I
mean, Irene was all right but she was, well, the oldest one and she thought that she had to play a
part, but -

(Taping cut off.)

JR: All right, when the family was together, okay, what, were they, you know, very, I mean
did they get, did they seem like a really unified happy family, or were they, was there like, you
know, different sections of girls, the boys? Did the mother and father side with the -?

FA: No, they all sat together, you know. I know on Sunday afternoons I'd get there sometimes
and they talk and they laugh and things, yeah, yeah. And then of course the kids would go there,
you could go in there oh yeah, you could go in there and you could, oh yeah, sit down and play
cards and -

JR: It was a warm feeling when you went in there.


FA: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

JR: It was never like, you know?

FA: No, no, no. No, never like, ¡°What the hell you doing here?¡±

DA: But that's the way it was back then.

FA: That's right, no matter where you went.

DA: Because that's like with us at home, every Sunday afternoon it was a house full of people,
because people gathered together. You don't have that anymore (unintelligible phrase).

FA: (Unintelligible phrase).

JR: What did you do on your night, you said that you worked until ten, what did you do with
your weekends, what, on Saturday, when would you get out?

FA: I worked Saturdays, too.

JR: Oh, you worked Saturdays too? All right, what time would that, what time would you get
up, what time would you go to bed, and what was a Saturday?

FA: What time would I get up? Oh, five o'clock, quarter past five. And then I'd go to bed if I
was lucky by midnight.

JR: Now, how much of that day would you spend working, all of it?

FA: Well, now you're talking about, you're talking about let's say summer time?

JR: Well like -

FA: I went to school, I went to school. Even after school I went at it, that's the first thing I'd
do, I'd get out of school, down the shop I went, I went down to work.

JR: So then you were, during weekends you were always, well okay, what time would you
stop, okay what was, during, while you were in school. All right, what would you do for a
Saturday, would you, you'd work in the morning, you get up at five, you work, and then would
you work in the afternoon and then at night?

FA: I'd work in the afternoon, work at night, and of course in those days it was nothing, you
know, I'd just go home, let's say seven, eight o'clock and there was always somebody around,
see, outside see. And like I said, we, today the kids said they wouldn't be caught playing relieve
or hopscotch, or something like hit the can -

DA: Kick the can.


FA: Kick the can, yeah.

DA: All these crazy games.

FA: Sure, that's right, we'd go out and sometimes we'd play until, of course when we were
younger, but it was nothing at all to be outside, we'd sit on the, there's an old store in Virginia,
(name), sit out there until ten, eleven, one, two o'clock in the morning, just talk and talk.
Nobody kicked out, nobody had an idea, let's break that window, you just sat there and that's all,
sure.

JR: So you would, most Saturdays you'd at least have some time to play with -?

FA: Oh, you always had time. You make that time, that's all, you take time.

JR: All right then, what would Ed be doing when you could, when you'd come, would he
usually be around or?

FA: Oh, Ed was always around. One time, if I'm not mistaken, did his sisters ever mention he
took up photography one time?

JR: No they didn't.

FA: Up over the garage he had a little darkroom.

JR: Really.

FA: Sure, I used to spend a lot of time with him in the darkroom. I mentioned it one time
when I met him and he said, ¡°I don't remember that.¡±

JR: So when was he doing this? When photography involved?

FA: Just in high school, a passing thing. He always had something he wanted to do, see. Oh
yeah, I remember the time where he and I took up tennis. We used to go play tennis about six
o'clock in the morning on the high school court. Well, we didn't want to be there a crowd, what
the heck. He did, he couldn't play, I was worse, see. Yeah, we did those things. Another time
started to hike the Roxbury and got half way and couldn't, if it was up to Ed, he'd have been. I
says, ¡°Ed, you can go, I'm getting the hell out, we¡¯re gonna die.¡±

JR: So you two, it sounds to me like you two were extremely close, I mean if he had a close
friend it would have been you.

FA: Of course once he went to college that was different, see, he went to college. And I think
once he got, we'll say a senior in high school, ¡®cause I was out of high school then anyways, see,
and I think. I knew him all the time, but you know, he.


JR: Well, you went your different ways, so.

DA: Well of course you were a year ahead of him, you graduated a year before him, you went
to work, so you weren't in school.

FA: He had a girl took a shine to him one time.

JR: Really. What happened to that?

FA: I think Ed took a shine to her. Oh, nothing, he just took a shine, I think he went to a dance
one time with this girl.

DA: School boy crushes, you know.

JR: Was he popular with the women, or did girls -?

FA: Well, he was liked. I don't think that the girls would run over him because I don't think
they realized whether they would be accepted or not, you know. But he wasn¡¯t hard actually, but
he didn't make it a point to say, well gee, ¡°I'm a man for all girls,¡± or anything like that. I think
in his way he saw girls, he talked to girls and everything else. I guess that he was likeable, if
you, a guy got friendly with Ed you couldn't walk away and say that he didn't like him.

JR: So did he have girlfriends? I mean, you said he had one girl take a shine to him, was that
it?

FA: Well, I didn't know that until a little later. Her brother-in-law was telling me.

JR: Who was this by any chance?

FA: Oh, I don't know whether I, no, no.

JR: So she was in his class?

FA: Oh, she was in his class, yes.

DA: I think his main interest was learning.

FA: Oh, it was, yeah, yeah, yeah.

DA: He had a thirst for knowledge, and that was his number one interest. Other things were
secondary.

FA: I think the only reason he did that was because, he thought he might have to go to a dance
once in a while. I think he tried like the devil to be one of the boys, but like she said, that was a,
the only thing he wanted was studying, studying.


DA: I think maybe why I feel I understand that and I can, after hearing him talk, I can
understand because this is, our daughter's exactly that way. With her, she just could not get
enough into her head, and she just wanted to study and study. And if she was out with the kids,
she was tutoring them. And that's what Ed, to me, from the things he's told me, I think, you
know, that's the way he was. He, his main aim was learning, and naturally that's what he went to
school for. And the other things, you know, he went in for sports and whatever, it was all
secondary. Number one was learning.

JR: Where do you think he got that drive from, did he get it from his parents or from just come
of its own?

FA: Well perhaps he saw how thrifty his parents were, you know, how they act and everything
else, and then the rest might come from him. But his father, we'll say for instance he wasn't a
boozer, he wasn't a gambler, he saw his father home all the time, he saw his mother taking care
of their clothes and cooking for them, and these things must make an impression, you know, they
do. They did with me.

DA: Hearing him describe Mr. Muskie at different times, I think he could have been a leader,
given the, you know, having the right opportunity. He came over here and he had to, you know,
find himself a business, take care of his family and everything. But from different things you've
told me, I think the man could have been a leader.

FA: That's right, yeah. Of course, quite a few nights he'd stay outside on the porch, he'd go out
on the porch and we'd be there, all out there, and he'd talk, and he could talk until one, two
o'clock in the morning. And he'd talk about when he was a kid and life in Poland, and life in the
church, as a member of the church, how hard it was, and he could sit there and everybody just
listened to him. I mean, his daughters or Ed and I, just listen, just let him talk and he could talk
away and never raise his voice, and just talk.

JR: Uh-huh, he loved that.

FA: Many the night we sat there, just listening to him, (unintelligible phrase).

JR: Was he just reminiscing, or was he trying to (unintelligible word)?

FA: Well, he might have been reminiscing. In the meantime, it was hitting home. He must
have known it hit home, that we were all listening for a reason. I mean, he must have figured
that these people here, well, plus he figured we were a little above the average, we'll, say it that
way, well these guys aren't going to you know, they¡¯ll listen, and we would. But he'd sit there
and that's all, you couldn't hear a peep when he starts talking.

JR: So he was very proud of I guess his Polish heritage, too.

FA: Oh yeah, I think he, I think he was a, he was a proud man.

JR: During, all right, now on your, okay, on your Saturday's work, what did you do on your

Sunday's, did you work then, too? Or was that, Sunday was -?

FA: Sunday, of course went to Mass, of course. We had a route, paper route, and after that we
was on our own, that's all. We dressed up -

JR: Did Ed do the paper route with you?

FA: Oh no, no, just my brothers.

JR: Just your brothers?

FA: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we'd always take a walk Sunday, always take a walk.

JR: Would your families ever get together for Sunday dinner or Saturday dinner?

FA: Well, we didn't that way. There was no father in the house and, I mean it was different,
you know, you don't find things like that.

JR: What did the Muskies do during the summer?

FA: In the summer?

JR: Yeah, well I, I mean all right, you don't have any more school. Now I know for me I, you
know, you go to a camp or something like that. What, you had all this time, what would they do,
would they just hang around the house and sleep?

FA: Kids those days had plenty to do, honest to God, didn't have to, they all, no, they always
did something, there was always activity everywhere.

DA: Well you mentioned, they took their family to the pond because they had a car, they used
to go to the pond.

FA: Oh, they had a car, nice big car.

DA: And we have a lot of lakes around here, we have Roxbury Pond, we have Worthing Pond,
Webb Lake.

FA: Any direction, ten miles, any direction, ten miles you got a pond.

DA: All kinds of lakes around here, so if you had a car, because that was the way with us, my
father bought a car in '21 and he used to take us to the pond all the time.

JR: So you, would you ever go with them?

FA: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.


JR: Now what, was this a thing you'd go for a day or go for a week?

FA: No, it would be day, just days.

JR: And you'd go to a, was this a public pond, or was it just, like a beach?

FA: Oh yeah, a public pond. Roxbury Pond all the time, public pond, wonderful beach.

JR: And I take it his whole family would go, and you and other people in your family would
go?

FA: Well usually I was about the only one in my family went, besides his family, yeah.

JR: And I mean what was that like, what was the mother like, I mean did she go there and get
involved with -?

FA: I never remember her going swimming or going in the water.

JR: Really.

FA: Yeah, Mr. Muskie was the first one in the swimming pool and the last one to get out.

JR: Did the kids take a shine to the swimming like that?

FA: Oh, they all took a shine to swimming.

JR: Is that, I guess because of their father?

FA: I guess so, yeah, yeah, yeah.

JR: So now, okay then, could you be more specific in things that they'd do during the summer?
I mean, there's a lot going on. What kind of things was going, what was it? You know, I mean
were they, was it a camp, were there camps, were there clubs, what was it? Was it school related
or what, you know, was it academics?

DA: We used to have band concerts every Thursday night, did they go on the band concerts?

FA: Well, I don¡¯t know, I wouldn¡¯t be surprised. I don't know about the folks, but the kids, we
all went, all the kids went, yeah. But you got to admit, when you were young, Diana, there was a
hell of a lot more to attract you than there is today for kids.

DA: Sure.

JR: So would, all right, so you get out of elementary school, what would you start to do during
the summer, when you started to get older, all right, you, I take it would you, you'd work during
most of the, you know, during the months, and you'd work through high school, right?


FA: I worked right through high school.

JR: Every time you had spare time -?

FA: Well the time I started to work, like she said, at eight and a half, nine years old, I can't, I
never had what I'd call a day off. I mean, I'd have a day off in that sense, but never, I always had
a job, never without a job, I've always worked.

JR: Now, did Ed have jobs like this? I mean, I know he didn't have to work.

FA: No, no, no, no, no.

JR: He never really had to, he didn't ever work?

FA: I think he used to go down practically and just and help his father in the shop, I think, like
any kid would. Yeah, yeah, I don't think he called it work, but I think he worked.

JR: All right, okay, so he would, for his summers though, then, he wouldn't have to earn
money. He would just have free time to spend.

FA: But after, when he started going to Bates College, he might have, I don't know if he did it
the last senior year in high school, but he went down and worked one of these, I even forgot the
name of the place, hell of a nice place he went to work.

JR: A restaurant, or?

FA: Oh, no, no, a summer hotel, you know, one of these, people come in and stay.

JR: So how did he get the money to go to Bates? I mean, his family wasn't rich. What was it,
was it a scholarship?

FA: Well, there was another, it was a, I've heard this, I don't know but, I think it's true. There
was a man by the name of Bingham, he was from Philadelphia and he, a guy from Bethel, I don't
know how he ever got up there.

DA: He set up Gould Academy.

FA: He set up Gould Academy.

DA: And the Bingham Trust.

FA: Yeah, and I guess some of these fellows that, like Ed, coming out of school, (unintelligible
phrase
), he got a little help. There's no doubt, and I think he was supposed to pay him back, but
when he got out his marks were so good I guess he just got a paid in full, that's all. And he did
that to Frankie Gidman, too, another fellow, another (unintelligible word) boy went to school

like that.

JR: So how did, I mean, how did Rumford, I mean how did he pick Rumford to come up and,
how did Hiram come up, or Bingham?

FA: In the state of Maine, they all come up here, that's where the Sun Resort is. Come on,
Boy, you said something about Bingham a little while ago.

DA: Bingham, Bingham -

JR: Well, I mean, okay, why Rumford, why not Bangor or why not, I mean why did he pick
out -?

FA: Well, he picked this little town of Bethel. If you went up there, you'd know why. And he
set up an academy there, a school, see. Then while he was here he also gave a wing to the
hospital here.

DA: That's right, he put a lot of money into the hospital.

JR: Oh, all right, so he had -?

FA: Oh yeah, he had money, see.

DA: The nurses' home, that was the Bingham Trust.

FA: Before there was a fire down Bar Harbor way. All these millionaires that you have read
about in history, they all lived there, they all had their homes there. And then the fire, what was
it, '40?

DA: Instead of Long Island.

FA: Yeah, no, but there was a fire -

DA: I've been down to the Hamptons, oh golly, you drool over those homes.

FA: So they all came to Maine to escape. That's why we have a hard time, that's why we have
a hard time in Maine. We get mad at the environmentalists because they want us not to do
anything so they can come up and enjoy this, see. But we got to make a living, we got to have a
paper mill, we got to have our smoke, we got to have this stuff, see.

JR: Okay, (unintelligible phrase), I'll never get over that one. All right, you said that Ed
enjoyed church? I mean, now I did, when I was a little kid I did not want to go to church.

FA: Well, he enjoyed, I'll tell you what I mean by that, he went to church and while he was at
church, it's like he was in school. If he was in school he was very attentive, and church the same
way. And perhaps he heard the priest, or perhaps he saw his father go, folks go to church, so he

went to church every Sunday like everybody else. I went to church. But during Lent, I don't
think I'd have gone as often if it wasn't for Ed, I'd go with him and tag along. It didn't hurt me,
don't get me wrong, I'm not making fun of it, I think it's wonderful.

JR: Yeah, but he would go, he, so he enjoyed it, I mean he got something out of it.

FA: Well, in that sense he got something out of it, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah.

JR: But he never tried to like -?

FA: He wouldn't go around saying you got to go to church or anything like that, no, no, no, no.

JR: But he would just do it because it's something he wanted to do.

FA: Yeah, yeah.

JR: All right, and so, but his mother and father were very, were involved.

FA: Oh, they were church people, they were church people, they went to church, yeah.

JR: But they, so then, it sounds like Catholicism just kind of, he enjoyed it. It wasn't
something that his mother and father said, you know, you have to, it's kind of his own personal
thing.

FA: Yeah, yeah.

JR: Did people used to bug him about, you know, you go to church, I mean -?

FA: No, it wasn't visible to people. They didn't know I knew it, see. Because when you go to
church it's, everybody's going to church. It ain't just Edmund Muskie, see.

DA: We all went to church, and we enjoyed it.

FA: Yeah, but I went -

DA: I always thought I got a lot out of it.

FA: But I'd go, I'd be going to school and Ed says, ¡°Let's say we go to Mass.¡± Okay, we get
up early and go to Mass, see. (Unintelligible phrase). But I mean, it wasn't something that
people said, look at the Muskie boy in church, because everybody was in church, I mean, it was
no different.

DA: Those that didn't were in the minority.

FA: And I think that's what Irene meant, when I said that, he liked church. You see, I didn't
mean it in that sense, the way she said it.


JR: All right, okay, all right, when he started to get into, in the high school, did his attitude
remain, still remain very serious and very dedicated towards his work?

FA: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

JR: Did he start to take a shine, okay, now when did he start to get involved with Mrs. Cleary,
or when, was this in junior high, was this when he was in eleventh grade?

FA: Well, she was there, I think she must have had him the whole four years while he was
there, she must have had him all four years, she must have. And she, I'll tell you why they
invented, those days we used to move, in other words if you had English, you went to the
English class, so you moved, see. And perhaps that's why she run across him a lot. You didn't
stay with one teacher all the time, see.

JR: Did you get to choose your own courses?

FA: Oh, we chose our courses, yeah.

JR: What kind of, do you know what kind of courses Ed was, I mean what did Ed enjoy?

FA: Oh, he loved geometry, he loved math, he loved stuff like that. I think he loved Latin, I
think he liked anything like that that was hard. I know I was in his geometry class.

DA: (Unintelligible phrase).

FA: Yeah, (unintelligible phrase).

DA: (Unintelligible phrase).

JR: Now Mrs. Cleary taught, was the head of debating, is that -?

FA: Oh, sure, she was head of debating.

JR: All right, so she kind of introduced him to it.

FA: Oh, yes, she, for some reason or other she saw something in him.

JR: Now were you in any classes with -?

FA: Geometry, I was in geometry.

JR: You were in geometry. And what was he like in a class, was he -?

FA: He wasn't a dead head. He didn't get up and act so smart, but he had the answers when he
was called on, and when the teacher called on him, not for the answer, she knew he knew it, just

to explain things, you know. There was this man by the name of Mr. Johnny Ross, a wonderful
math teacher, wonderful. And I liked him, too, and he had a lot of respect there, and I think Ed
got locked on him, too, yeah.

JR: So in this class, Ed wouldn't necessarily always volunteer his answers, but if the teacher
said what is the answer he would -?

FA: He had it all the time. And if he found out anybody in the class beat him in, we'll say, in a
test they'd taken, you know, boy, he couldn't understand why, but he tried harder.

JR: Was he like a grade grubber, you know, like did he really want the A, and was he really
upset if he got a B?

FA: Oh yes, yes, yes, yeah. He wanted it, not because he thought that you'd made a mistake in
correcting the paper, but he just wanted that, he just wanted it for his own satisfaction. He didn't
give a damn whether the world knew it or not.

DA: And he wanted to excel.

FA: That's right.

DA: That's all, he wanted to excel.

JR: But he wouldn't go around saying, I didn't get my A.

FA: Oh no, no, you wouldn't even know he was in the class. No. Well, he did it to me
because I was with him every day, see.

JR: But he was -

FA: He would tell me, he would just, I mean, he wasn't squawking, we'd just talk over the
thing, see. He just wanted to excel, that's what he.

JR: Did he ever help other, okay, he was a really good student obviously.

FA: Oh, he helped people.

JR: Did he, would he offer advice, you know, or would people go to him for tutoring?

FA: Well, I don't know whether he actually would offer advice, but I don't think he ever turned
it down. I don't think he ever turned helping anybody down.

JR: Did he help people often, I mean would you see him, you know?

FA: Oh, I think he would.


JR: Going over problems and stuff like that?

FA: Oh yeah.

JR: All right, and when did he start debating, at what point was he, you know, involved in
debating? I mean, was this ninth grade, or was this ten, eleven.

FA: Well, it says that, what years was it, three, four, sometime, I know -

DA: Debating III and IV.

FA: III and IV, that's his last two years.

JR: All right, eleventh and twelfth.

FA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, eleven and twelve, yeah.

JR: All right, so then when you saw him your junior year, that was your senior year.

FA: That was my senior year, yeah.

JR: Okay, what was, did you ever go to any of his meets, or his debate -?

FA: No, I never went that, those, everything was held at night, I had to work.

JR: What would, I mean, okay, was this debate thing something that had always been there,
was this a part of the Stephen's High School, the debate team?

FA: Oh, we always had a debating team.

JR: They always did. It wasn't like, you know, Mrs. Cleary started it?

FA: Oh no, that was there all the time.

JR: It was there all the time.

FA: But I think she brought it out to a lot of these fellows, she did a good job. They won
every meet, no matter where they went.

JR: Now who would they debate against, or things like that?

FA: Oh, Bates freshmen and all these Bowdoin College freshmen, another high school around
Portland. See, at one time, to get off the subject a little bit, this little Rumford High, Stephen's
High, it was Rumford, they used to have top basketball teams in the state. A school of about
eight, what, eight hundred, around six hundred people, and we topped the whole state, where
they had fifteen hundred, two thousand, see.


JR: Wow, and you only had about eight hundred at this school.

FA: Yeah, and that's when they'd top them in basketball, and they were right up there with
football. I think they won one time four years straight, were champion football team in the state.
They did all these things, see.

DA: Oh, Stephen's was always way up there (unintelligible phrase).

FA: Yeah, and debating was the same way, everything they did, for some reason or other.
Lately they've gone down, way, way down, but at one time they were right at the top with
everything, yeah.

DA: Because all kids do is sit and watch T.V.

FA: Okay, Diana.

DA: They don't develop themselves. That's what it is.

JR: All right, well, now what was it that, okay, the debating team would often, was relatively,
you know, an overwhelming team.

FA: That's right, we were overwhelming, that's a good word.

JR: They would usually, there's not much you could do against them. Now, were there other
high schools they'd debate against?

FA: Oh, high schools, too, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

JR: Would they compete against like Exeter ever, or, Exeter or Andover, or not? Were they
too far away?

FA: I remember that in basketball they used to debate some of those, I mean in basketball they
used to play those teams. But debating, I do know that they debated some of the best, but how
far down they went out of state I don't know, because I know they debated against Hebron
Academy there.

JR: And, all right, now when, did you ever, did Ed ever talk about his, in his debating, I mean
did he -?

FA: Well no, no, because, no, because like you say, I was a senior and, no, he never did. I
think he was very proud of it, but I don't think, well, how many people knew about debating. If
you go on the street, who are you going to talk to about debating, even today?

JR: You're right.


FA: Okay, so you see, that's -

JR: Now the athletics, what were the athletics like at Stephen's, was it, you said they were
really, really good. Now, when Ed was on the track team, was it a really impressive track team?

FA: Oh yes, They¡¯s getting all the big meets, and to win one of those events you had to be
good. And nothing against Ed, you know, today I think he'd have been a pretty good athlete in
school because, like Diana says, they had the caliber then. Kids aren't interested. But those
days, oh yeah, they used to go down and race against Bates freshmen, Bowdoin freshmen.

(Aside - Diana offering soda.)

FA: Oh yeah, and he did, he participated a lot. Like in basketball, they used to play against all
these academies and all these bigger teams, you know. And they'd come from out of state, out of
Massachusetts and play them, too, and so you had to be real good to excel. And at least Ed made
the team, and I think that was more because, ¡°I want to do it¡±, because I don't think he had it
naturally.

JR: Did, now, so he wasn't coordinated.

FA: Oh, he'd fall all over himself. He got to be coordinated in athletics, but at first he'd fall
over himself.

JR: So then how did he get involved in -

End of Side B, Tape One
Side A, Tape Two


JR: So then how did he get involved in basketball?

FA: Well, they took a liking to Ed, they worked with him. And he liked it, he liked it. But he
wasn't aggressive, he wasn't the kind of a guy who would see two guys on the floor and on
purpose bump into them, no, no. He was a good athlete, he was a good fellow no matter what he
did. He was going to do his share, but he wasn't going to overdo it or push his way around. He
was going to do it the clean way, the neat way.

JR: Now did you ever see him play basketball?

FA: Oh yeah, yeah.

JR: What was he like out there, I mean when he'd play, was he just kind of a quiet center, you
know, you see the center as, you know, just, they just kind of like, well like Parrish, all right. I
don't know if you saw the Celtics.

FA: Yeah, yeah, oh yeah.


JR: But he's quiet, you know, he just gets his rebounds (unintelligible phrase).

FA: Like Hollander, he's quiet, Lakers, he's quiet, yeah, yeah. Of course basketball was
different in those days as it is now, you know. After every, every time a team scored they had
what they call a center jump in the middle of the floor. And that, see, that's why they wanted a
tall guy, see, to get the ball, see. Now after every score, the team that scores now starts the play,
right? No, in those days they had what they called the center jump, see.

JR: So how tall was Ed when -?

FA: Well, compared to the kids today, you could see, everybody was short in those days, not
like today, you got these seven footers, you know, see.

DA: We have a fourteen-year-old grandson, six feet right now.

FA: And Ed was fairly tall for the kids around here, see, and they tried to make him a center,
and that was one of the reasons. People went in and jumped, at least get the ball, you know, tick
the ball, see.

JR: So, now did a lot of people attend these basketball games?

FA: Oh, yeah.

JR: Were those, you know, big?

FA: Rumford attended all, anything. Except things like debating, I mean they, see, a mill town
is an athletic town, any mill town, I don¡¯t care whether it was Livermore Falls or Westbrook or
Millinocket. For some reason or other, it's sports, you know.

DA: Anything of a more cultural nature just falls by the wayside.

JR: Now, with his sports, was he, did it put him in the limelight at all? I mean, you know, you
have your stars.

FA: Well, no, he never was a star. The only thing he was in the limelight, he was so big,
they'd say, well look at that big fellow out there, you know. Being compared to everybody else,
see. But as far as, I don't know. I think that he did one meet one time in track, it was one of the
tough ones. He had pretty good stamina, he could run all day I think.

JR: Yeah, really good, and he also had long legs. All right, when did he start doing track, was
that something, I mean did you see him like when he was a little guy getting really into track?

FA: Well, as kids everybody runs, they do things, you know. Set up a pole, see if you can
jump four feet or three feet, you know, foolish things like that. But I think it was in high school
when, I think just like today, they go for the big guys. And I think in those days they tried and
make them, a track man out of them, and they try to make a basketball player out of him.


JR: Try and fit him into a sport. All right. When did he start showing signs of this leadership,
you know, kind of a quiet leadership?

FA: Well, I think he always did, although he didn't have nothing to lead. But I think that
people respected him, and I think that's one of the things, that's a good start in leadership, out of
respect, see. And then I think when he went out on his own, then he says, yeah, I'm older, now I
got to do things on my own. In school you've got the teachers bringing you up, see. Or when
you're home, you got the parents. But then you go out, you go to college, all at once you say,
I've got to do something, I've got an education, I got to see what I can do with it, see. And I
think that's when he actually started out to do something. Like some of the stories he told when
he was barnstorming around the country, around the state of Maine, when he was down in
Waterville and wanted to be a legislator, get in the Maine legislature. They get into placing it,
they got a dime between two guys, that's all they got, see. But he was bound he was going to do
something. And the first time he run for office he got beat.

JR: Did he really?

FA: Yeah.

JR: Oh, I didn't know that.

FA: Down in Waterville.

JR: And that was when he was running for the Maine legislature?

FA: That's right, yeah, yeah. He won the next time, and after once he got in they found out
they had somebody.

DA: But he hurt the feelings of a lot of people in Rumford, because he claimed Waterville as
his hometown, not Rumford.

JR: Why, why did he do that?

DA: Well, that's where he settled, that's where he went into, I mean you can understand what,
you know, and he came from there when he went into politics. When he got out of college, he
married Jane, who was from Waterville, I think. And he had a law practice there, and it was
from there that he went into politics. So at that time what he called, it was his hometown at the
time, that's where he was living. But there's a lot of people around here that resented it very,
very much.

FA: Still do.

DA: They said he's ashamed he came from Rumford, he won't even claim Rumford as his
home town.


JR: But is that, that's not true, is it?

DA: Well, I don't, I don't know. I think that his chances in politics were better coming from
Waterville, there was a better political machine there to be able to help him get going in politics,
that's what I think it was. I don't think coming from Rumford he would have had too much of a
chance.

JR: Did he have any dreams, you know, fantasies, when he was in high school?

FA: If he had, he kept it to himself. He must have, because you know, the man -

DA: Everybody's got a dream.

FA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

DA: Some dream bigger than others, that's all.

FA: Yeah, I think he -

DA: And some make it.

FA: I think after he got out of Bates College and he was tops in Bates College, then he went
down to Cornell and he was tops down there. By that time you start saying to yourself, ¡°Well,
gosh, I got something, you know, let's try it.¡± You got to. How else can you do it? You can't
wait for somebody to push you.

JR: Now when, you may not know anything about this, but what was Bates' reputation at
Rumford High, at Stephen's High School?

FA: A good school.

JR: Was it?

FA: Oh, they've always had a good rep, always had. One thing I remember about Bates was
this: that's the first time I ever knew that a colored man, an athlete, was at Bates College, and
that's way, way, way back. That's a, see I got out of school in '31, and in the twenties they had
guys playing football and I says, they got black guys up here playing football?

JR: Really.

FA: Yeah.

JR: And this was at Bates?

FA: Yeah, it was at Bates, oh yeah. Who's that guy on T.V. now, came out of Bates? He's on
Today's program.


JR: Yeah, the Today Show.

FA: Sure, sure, Today's program.

DA: Bryant? Bryant Gumbel?

JR: Bryant Gumbel, yeah.

FA: Well, they started a lot of black people in Bates, way back in the twenties.

DA: Yeah, they were really very, a liberal, you know, way ahead of the others.

JR: So it was well thought of. So it wouldn't be anything unusual to have, from your class,
how many people went to Bates, was there quite a number?

FA: Well, from my class, I got out in '31, there weren't very many went to anywhere.

DA: Nobody went to college, 1931?

JR: No, all right, okay, all right.

FA: Depression?

JR: Well then, okay then, why did Ed go? In thirty-, well Ed went in '32?

DA: Just a year later. Well, the thing is, I think it was his dream, he wasn't going to stop there.

FA: Yeah, but don't forget, I think perhaps it could have been Miss. Cleary and teachers like
that. Bates was well known for a good debate in those days, they had a good debating team at
Bates, I don't know if you remember that, because you look a little young so -

JR: Well, we still do.

FA: Okay, all right, that's one of the reasons that -

DA: The right counseling, you know, sometimes the right counseling means a lot, too. And
you said, Miss Cleary probably had a lot to do with it.

FA: And Miss Murphy liked him.

JR: Now who's Miss Murphy, what did she -?

FA: She was a Latin teacher.

JR: Oh, all right, okay, I've heard about her.


FA: From Lewiston. Oh, she liked Ed very much. Miss Cleary, I think she, not Miss Cleary,
Miss, who's the one had the whiskers?

DA: Miss Hayes.

FA: Miss Hayes, yeah.

JR: What did Miss Hayes teach?

DA: English, wasn't it?

FA: English, yeah, yeah. And there was a Miss Robinson. I think she started him in his math,
Miss Robinson, and then he got into Johnny Ross after.

JR: Who is, all right, is there a woman named Lucille Ward?

FA: Hicks, Hicks. Abbott now, her name's Abbott.

JR: Okay, he mentioned her, Ed did, as someone that he was relatively close to. What did she
teach?

FA: She taught English the first couple years. Of course, Ed liked her as an English teacher; I
liked her because I thought she was a wonderful looking girl. I used to look at her in school and
I'd say, ¡°Where do these teachers come from?¡± I did, honest, even today I look at her and
remember way back.

JR: What's her married name?

FA: Abbott.

JR: Abbott, all right. Now I just want to ask, with what time I have left, what was Rumford
like during this period where you grew up? I mean was Rumford, now Rumford's always been a
mill town, right? What -

FA: One of the largest towns in the state, and I'm not kidding you. One of the largest, they had
International Paper Mill, they had the Oxford plant, they had two mills, they had quite a few
sawmills around, and one of the most active towns in the state.

DA: And downtown, my God, different places.

FA: That's right.

DA: We had more, we had restaurants, there were more restaurants and more stores, more
everything than today.


FA: You go downtown three o'clock in the morning in those days, they'd still have somebody
around.

JR: Really, it was always busy, very vibrant.

FA: Real lively, real lively, that's right, that's right. And it always had a fairly good base rate,
tax rate you know. People were self-supporting, and a lot of homes, people did buy homes
themselves, a lot, a lot of people owned homes then.

JR: So most, well did most people get hooked into working into working at the mill, was the
mill the center focus of -?

FA: It still is, because that's where you make money, they make good money in the mills.

JR: All right, now did it smell, I mean was the smell, I mean, you know, you guys were talking
about Rumford, it stinks?

FA: I know, I know, but don't forget, you know what one priest said one time, somebody said
something about the smell? He says, ¡°Look, he says, it smells money.¡±

And I got to tell you a story about one of the first jobs I ever had when I got out of high school, I
did go in the mill, the International Mill, they call it the IP. Fifteen cents an hour, and I got a
raise to twenty cents an hour. We worked fifty-four hours. In those days, they put the money in
a manilla envelope, I took it home, because my mother got the money. When my mother got the
ten dollars and eighty cents the first week, she says, ¡°What kind of a job you got to make so
much money?¡± Ten dollars and eighty cents. In those days, if a man made six, seven dollars a
week it was a lot. And we weren't bad. This mill here worked one day more than any other
paper mill in the country. Well, this was one, always one of the big paper mills, always. But
your father, during the Depression, you people didn't feel it that bad, did you? Compared to a lot
of people around you?

DA: My father went in the mill.

FA: That's right.

JR: Now when the Depression hit, what did that, all right, the stock market crashed in '29, did
you all feel that immediately up here?

FA: No, we didn't feel it until about I'd say '30, '31. That would have been the tail end of it,
see. But we never felt it that much because the mill never went down.

JR: It didn't decrease in employees at all?

FA: Oh, no, no, it went down this way. We'll say they were running five days a week, went
down to four days a week, or three days a week. But there was always something going on in
the mill, it never went down completely, when you say nothing's going.


DA: And this is still quite the mill, this is the biggest Boise Cascade mill, and they have a lot
of them. And when they were having a lot of their trouble with their lumber businesses and
everything, this was what was keeping the others afloat. It's still quite the mill.

FA: At one time, Oxford Mill at one time they had thirty five hundred working there, at just
hourly pay, besides the salary pay.

JR: All right, did, so Rumford really didn't shut down as a result of the -

FA: It never shut down.

JR: It was almost kind of like, as you said earlier, well the carpenter would go to the tailor to
get his stuff fixed, and the tailor would go the carpenter, you know, to get his wood fixed. It was
just kind of like a self-sustained town.

FA: Oh, you knew, you did it for a fact, that's right, you did it, yeah, yeah, yeah.

JR: You didn't need, it wasn't a matter of, well the market crashed down in New York or
wherever, Wall Street, it didn't really, it didn't involve you even.

FA: If you had a room in the house to be painted, you got the painter over to paint my room,
see. And you never asked him how much, he did it, that's all. He knew he was going to get paid
something.

DA: And there were a lot of people coming into town to work in the mill that, you know, like
say single men and that, well mothers didn't go out and work. Like, my mother would have
boarders. And so of course we always ate real good, because my mother really set quite a table.
She'd have seven or eight boarders coming in to eat their meals besides us. Well, there was
plenty of food. And that's what, you know, a lot of people did, you know, the mothers were
home taking care of their families, but they would do these things to help out the family finances.

JR: One thing I forgot to ask you about. The social life when you were in high school, what
was that, you had dances, parties, what?

FA: Every week something going on.

JR: Like what?

FA: Well, a dance, every club or every class had its, had their turn. And then after every
athletic contest was a dance. When they had their football games, they'd dance, after basketball
games a dance. Oh yeah, everything was -

JR: What were the dances like?

FA: A bunch of kids dancing.


JR: Did, I mean okay, as you said, during recess would some, you know, (unintelligible
phrase
)?

FA: No, this was after athletic contests, see.

JR: And where did you have these, in the gym?

FA: Oh yeah, they had the, the gym, yeah. And we had that Rumford Mechanics Institute at
that time as well.

JR: Now what was that, would you have, what was at the Rumford Mechanics Institute?

FA: It had everything, it had a bowling alley, it had pool tables, it had meeting rooms, it had a
card room, they had a dance place. Every Friday night there was a dance. Four times a year they
give out a public supper for nothing if you was a member, oyster stew. There was always
something going on, I don't give a damn when you went there, there's something going on,
always something. And the gym, you'd go up there any time you wanted to. You were
downtown, let's go up to the gym and shoot baskets, or let's go up to the gym -

DA: Our boys practically grew up down there.

FA: Yeah, (unintelligible word), they had anything you wanted, you know, mats, anything you
wanted.

JR: Well, okay, so then there was definitely a social life, I mean it sounds like -

FA: Oh, Rumford, like I said, it was lively, always something, no matter what it was.

JR: So what's happened to it? It's quiet now.

FA: It is quiet.

JR: What happened to it, is it -?

FA: Okay, you answer that question what happened to it.

DA: Well, there's no future for our young people, so they leave.

FA: Well, even the old people, they got nothing to do now, the older people.

DA: There's nothing.

FA: Yeah, years ago -

DA: The only thing for entertainment in Rumford is the beer joints.


FA: Like everywhere else.

DA: That's all there is.

JR: They didn't have them then, they didn't have like beer joints then, or was there -

FA: Well, it was Prohibition in those days.

DA: No, but you had, you went downtown, you had all like these nice -

FA: Ice cream (unintelligible word).

DA: Yeah, soda fountain, ice cream parlors, a place like you sit around and have a nice ice
cream.

FA: There was a bunch of them.

DA: Nowadays they go downtown and drink, that's the difference.

JR: Now did you have a hangout when you were in high school?

FA: Well, the Institute, everybody went there.

JR: That was the, where you'd meet.

FA: Sure, everybody met down there, yeah.

JR: All right, high school and everything like that, you'd just go down there and meet.

DA: Very well run.

FA: Get in a corner with your girlfriend, if nobody saw you, and sneak, you know.

JR: Now, is there any one thing that you, like one incident that you remember about Ed that
really kind of depicts his, you know, depicts him as a, you know, in seeing him and remembering
him -?

FA: Well, I'll say this, I wasn't surprised to see Ed get where he did go, because I think as a
youngster, of course I'm looking back now, I could see where, why he did, like I was telling you,
explaining it along the way. When, we'll say he was playing a card game, he got beat, and he'd
come back and you could see he wanted to win. And I think those things don¡¯t hurt. Those
things I remember about Ed. Of course I always remember him, he at times was hot headed. If
he got mad, he got mad, get out of the way. It didn't last long because, if it did last long he got
out anyhow. If he was in the house, he went upstairs for a while and come down, see.


JR: Cool off.

FA: Yeah, but I mean wasn't the type that voiced his wanting to fight or anything. And then I
think he got mad within himself, too, you know, a lot of people do that.

DA: But he could be very emotional, like that New Hampshire thing that happened there.

FA: Oh, I can see why that happened.

DA: When he cried. Well, you that, oh, we were just furious at that. And I said to myself,
what's the matter with people? They ought to say, you know, that's quite a man that can stand up
and cry because his wife's been insulted. Now, I think that's a man.

FA: I thought it was a man, I thought, but people said then, we don't want a president like that.
Why not? They can show emotions. I know if somebody says anything about my wife I don't
like, I'm not going to sit back there and just, so there you go, see.

DA: And not only that, in a campaign you just, he probably was just so exhausted, they get so
tired and he'd reached a point that, you know. It was just a last straw, you know, he was just too
tired and it took him over emotionally and -

FA: And I don't think Ed was the type that -

DA: Not anything like that. But I don't see anything wrong with a person having decent
emotions.

FA: Remember the time we went up, when he first got in there, the governorship, we went
there? All these Republicans were all surprised how a man in the state of Maine, where there
was four or five or six of the Republicans, he's the Democrat to ever win. But they took a liking
to him, they all said let's give the young fellow a chance. So they all gave him a chance, and it
turned out to be good because he did a good job.

DA: And at the time that he ran there with Humphrey, we always felt if he had been the top
one on the ticket, they'd have won.

FA: I think so.

DA: Yeah, really. Humphrey was a very smart man, he'd been in Congress so long and
everything, but still he didn't seem to have that appeal to the people, you know. And we always
felt that if you get him in there first, it would have gone.

JR: Yeah, so, do you think that when that thing happened in New Hampshire, what kind of
sunk him was that, just the being emotional? Kind of caught up with him?

FA: I think everything caught up with him right at that time. And I think that whoever did it,
figured on that, (unintelligible phrase), you'd know that there's a breaking point to every man. I

think there is. Who was the guy did that now, I'm trying to think?

DA: Oh, those people, with their dirty tricks campaign.

FA: Look in Florida, look at the one in Florida, about that one about the.

DA: (Unintelligible phrase), they really had a dirty tricks campaign going at that time, it was
terrible.

JR: Kind of a smear campaign.

DA: Caught up with them, too.

JR: Did you see any of his, you know, his current ideas in politics kind of, did you see any,
can you kind of look back and say, yeah, that's kind of Ed there, you know, like his interest in the
environment, or the Maine industry. Can you, you know, or the shoe industry?

FA: No, I didn't follow that closely, that closely. I get mad because they talk about this
environment and everything else, and oh yeah, and. What the hell you going to do now? How
many people gripe about the smell in the mill. We don't even notice it, we live here, this is a
living for people, see. And you get these people come from out of state, come up in the summer
time, ¡°Jesus, what's that damn smell?¡± Stay back home if you don't like the smell, we don't give
a darn. But these are the people who are pushing the issue. I'm not pushing the issue, I live with
it. It's the people who don't live here that's pushing the issue.

JR: So in a way you didn't really see, well did that bother you, then, that Ed was so involved
with this air and water pollution?

FA: Well to a certain extent something had to be done.

DA: Oh, well we believe it. Something had to be done, but you have these really extremists
that -

FA: I'm talking about the real, yeah, I'm talking about the, I think when Ed did it, he lived here
longer, he knew something had to be done. And the mills did something, put their money in
Boise Cascade's (unintelligible word).

DA: That's right. I mean of course, down here they had been working, we had had pollution
abatement facilities for twenty years here, when this came up. That had been going on for, they
had been working on all this stuff all along. But of course with laws going in, well naturally you
kind of, but we had a director pollution abatement there for twenty years when they started
coming out with this stuff.

JR: So then I guess it was, it wasn't Ed necessarily going, Ed realized that there was something
needed to be done because it was kind of -


FA: I think so, I think so.

JR: But he also realized everywhere that it was coming, it wasn't just here in Rumford, well in
a way it was, but it was also in New York, in Pennsylvania, California in Illinois.

FA: Everywhere.

DA: It was mild around here, compared to what it was in some areas.

FA: We used to go through the New Jersey Turnpike, and it was terrible.

DA: Love Canal and stuff like that, you know, god.

FA: Down around the refineries down in New Jersey, I thought it was terrible when you go
through there.

JR: All right, well thank you. I'm just going to formally end this, I want to thank you so much
for (unintelligible phrase).

End of Interview